Lots of good points. So, I feel really good in turn 1 at Jennings. My favorite corner actually. What could be changed on my bp? Also, what am I doing right?

 

Honestly you have textbook body position,better than mine for sure. The only question that I have because I can't tell from the pic is if you are pulling on the bar with your right hand. I don't think so but it's the only question that comes to mind.

Great job.

 

Just put this up in the other thread but figured I'd add this here as that "exception to the rule" you mention....

Sometimes it's just a person's riding style but they're still fast. We have a control rider that's a little older than me... probably pushing close to 50. He rides a ZX10 and if you were to look at his body position there'd probably be things to critique.... until he goes past you drifting both wheels as one of our most experienced and fastest coaches.

Look at Kevin Schwantz... 500cc Grand Prix World Champion and had some of the worst BP in history if we were to really dig into it. Seriously.... we would call this dude a total noob if we saw this up on a canyon road.

 

And my response from the other thread


Gang, believe me, I get that there are many ways to ride. Everyone has their own style that works for them and yes, those exception 's that everyone loves to quote are certainly fast but they are just that. Exceptions.

I am sure that everyone here (myself included) would like to believe that they are the next Troy Bayliss but the odds are overwhelmingly against that.

We are all after the same thing;to push our skills and speeds to the limit. There are some certain accepted truths about how to go and do that, and because none of us here are the next Bayliss we must strive to do all that we can to follow that path.

In the end I am here to help, and not to tear people down. It is why I haven't really posted anything like this in the several years that I have been a part of this forum. Without voice inflection it is difficult for me to come across as anything but a know it all arrogant dickbag.

My criticism is intended to be constructive which is why I don't offer it unless asked. People can either take my advice or decide that I'm full of shit and ignore what I say. The choice is yours...

 

Funny this came up.....I was thinking something similar whilst watching the tt....noticed the riders do often ride crossed up (usually a term for poor form)....guessing it's down mainly to give their head clearance so as to not head but someone's house at 180mph lol.....anyone else noticed how much difference there is in tt/road racers to track racers in terms of body position?

 

There are many pro riders that will be crossed up depending on what they are doing/about to be doing. If I am coming out of a turn where there is only a short straight to the next turn on the same side (left turn leading into another left turn), I often only pull my head back behind the windscreen and leave my body off to the side of the bike. Conservation of energy is key. Keep in mind that proper body position is mostly relevant in the main parts of a turn. Once the bike is back up on the meat of the tires, it becomes less critical and we have some leeway with what we do with our bodies.

I have heard that the bike you ride will react better to different weight distribution and body position. The older riders have similar positions just like the newer style riders are all the same.
Just like Rossi has had to evolve his body position over the years based on what the progression of the bikes is.
The Evolution of Motorcycle Body Position - Page 2 of 2 -TheRideAdvice.com | Page 2

Here is something to consider: MotoGP lap times are only marginally faster than the previous years which can easily be attributed to improvements in the machine. There is absolutely no evidence that I can see to prove that the 'elbow down' riding style makes you any faster. This is only my opinion (because I am certainly nowhere near the riding skill of those people) but I believe that it is done for showmanship and popularity.

When Marquez first hit the scene with that riding style, everyone else in the paddock was still riding 'conventionally'. Many of the riders adopted this new style but their lap times did not change.

Another point to possibly prove my theory is that there are many riders that still do not use the elbow down method, and are at the same lap times they have always been at.

While riding at slower speeds (though the speeds increase as I get more comfortable and introduce less bar input), I take turns with only my right hand on the bar -- this forces me to keep my bar input to an absolute minimum because any weight you put on the bar creates very noticeable effects (because you can't offset the pressure with the other hand). It also feels much less stable when pressure is maintained on the bar after making the initial steering input -- something just feels wrong, whereas this is much less noticeable with both hands on the bars. The solution (I've found), is to shift your body to the inside of the turn so that the weight is balanced -- then, if it weren't for needing to keep on the throttle, you could take both hands off the bars and be just fine.

Obviously, if people are going to do this, make sure your turn is clear of everything...

This is an excellent exercise to practice and fantastic advice. We often have our students take their left hands off the bars during instruction. It forces them to make sure that they are supporting all of their weight with their lower body.

I dunno....I just throttle up during the turn and as I pick up speed and the bike wants to stand up, I hang off of it more and try to pull it down. Its an ongoing battle :laugh:

You should be VERY careful with 'pulling the bike down' while accelerating as this is the #1 reason why riders highside on corner exit. If your bike runs wide, that is a suspension tuning/geometry issue. The only bar input in a turn should be when initiating the turn. After that it is strictly 'thumb and forefinger' bar pressure just to keep the bike carving. It is very minimal.

 

I have heard that the bike you ride will react better to different weight distribution and body position. The older riders have similar positions just like the newer style riders are all the same.
Just like Rossi has had to evolve his body position over the years based on what the progression of the bikes is.
The Evolution of Motorcycle Body Position - Page 2 of 2 -TheRideAdvice.com | Page 2

 

This looks like a good thread. I'll come back to read it all later tonight when I get back from checking out some museums/memorials in DC

 

While riding at slower speeds (though the speeds increase as I get more comfortable and introduce less bar input), I take turns with only my right hand on the bar -- this forces me to keep my bar input to an absolute minimum because any weight you put on the bar creates very noticeable effects (because you can't offset the pressure with the other hand). It also feels much less stable when pressure is maintained on the bar after making the initial steering input -- something just feels wrong, whereas this is much less noticeable with both hands on the bars. The solution (I've found), is to shift your body to the inside of the turn so that the weight is balanced -- then, if it weren't for needing to keep on the throttle, you could take both hands off the bars and be just fine.

Obviously, if people are going to do this, make sure your turn is clear of everything...

 

I dunno....I just throttle up during the turn and as I pick up speed and the bike wants to stand up, I hang off of it more and try to pull it down. Its an ongoing battle :laugh:

 

Good write-up as usual PSlo! I have a couple of questions that maybe you can elaborate on or help with:

1. First off, are you saying that if I can't do 20 laps without feeling like I'm going to pass out, I have terrible BP? I'll be honest, I've never been able to do that. Best I've ever done, at any track was 15 laps and it was in my first race ever, and I'm guessing the adrenaline is the only thing that got me through it because I felt like I was beat up after those 15 laps, and I haven't done it since then lol. But I always attributed that with being an out-of-shape fatass, not so much that I have terrible BP.

2. I can say with confidence that my biggest struggle is and has always been putting too much pressure on the handle bars. I know that because not only that I just feel it when riding, but also because my hands/wrists are what fatigue the fastest. I've had to come into the pits a few laps sooner than I planned at times only because my right hand was so numb that I could barely feel feedback from the brake lever and throttle, and I was starting to make mistakes.

But the question is, HOW do I fix that? I know the problem, and I know what you're supposed to do (pretty much what you stated above), but I seem to have a big problem with actually doing it. It's sort of like with golf...I know exactly what I need to do to hit a good shot, but I can only do it about 1/5 times. So do you have any tips on how to actually fix that? Also, once you start turning into a corner, when you obviously need to apply some pressure in order to turn the bike, do you just back off that pressure and only use the minimum amount required to keep the bike leaned over? Thing of a longer corner, like a carousel type where you're at full lean for a good 5+ seconds. Can you elaborate in more detail on how you distribute your weight in longer turns like that? I think part of my problem might be that I'm not anchoring myself well onto the bike, so in longer turns at full lean it feels like I'm about to fall off the bike and I use my inside hand to hold myself on, which is less than ideal. Sometimes I wonder how I don't crash with as much pressure I put on the inside handle bar....must be because modern day front race tires are just freakin awesome!

EDIT: also to add to the above, what about bar input under WOT on straights? Am I the only one that feels like I'm doing pull-ups when going full stick on the straights? I feel like i'm holding on for dear life or else I fly off the back of the bike, and that's while at full tuck. It was especially bad with my liter bike, but even on the ZX6R is pretty close to that. Don't know exact numbers, but figure these bikes can pull at least 0.5 G on acceleration if you do it right (in the power band). So holding on the bars at that is like holding half your weight in your hands. So at 220 lbs, the hands are holding a force of about 110 lbs, or 55 lbs each hand. So basically on every straightaway, it's like holding a 5 gal bucket full of water in each hand for about 10-15 seconds or however long it takes to travel the length of the straightaway. Then on the brakes, the G-force is even higher since the brakes are more powerful, so now it's like bench-pressing 100-150 lbs and holding it there for a few seconds (duration of braking zone). Granted, you use the tank to distribute that force a lot more so only a part of that is actually on the hands, but still adds up.

 

Good write-up as usual PSlo! I have a couple of questions that maybe you can elaborate on or help with:

1. First off, are you saying that if I can't do 20 laps without feeling like I'm going to pass out, I have terrible BP? I'll be honest, I've never been able to do that. Best I've ever done, at any track was 15 laps and it was in my first race ever, and I'm guessing the adrenaline is the only thing that got me through it because I felt like I was beat up after those 15 laps, and I haven't done it since then lol. But I always attributed that with being an out-of-shape fatass, not so much that I have terrible BP.

A year ago when I was straining to try to hold onto the bike I would have died doing 20 laps in a row. This year since I've found a position that lets me lock on the bike and relax, when I did the MCRA 20 lap race at Hallett the other weekend it was no problem at all. I was thirsty, but not very fatigued. There are a few people out there at the CMRA rounds that aren't exactly athletes, but they can do it and it all comes down to being able to relax on the bike.

I did have to build up some forearm endurance though! I'm using a 19x18 MC and EBC pads so if I really needed to I have a few options to dial up the power. But, it isn't really a problem any more.

That has been my experience at least.

 

Good stuff again.

 

It doesn't seem to be a problem on my 500, but any bike that's much faster than that, it becomes a problem. It's the hard braking and hard acceleration that gets me tired (at least my hands/forearms) and makes me put too much pressure on the handle bars.

 

I feel like I have good body position but like everything else, there is usually room for improvement. I usually run between 70-90 laps (150-200 miles) in a track day and I can start to feel where I am making mistakes in my body position. It's nice to use it as a marker. If anything gets sore early on, that becomes my next focus.

I don't entirely agree that body positioning should be the last thing taught. While there are certain aspects that may not be important until your pace picks up, there are some basic fundamentals of being comfortable/relaxed and placement on your bike that should be mentioned.

I think that goes for all the fundamentals. Having a basic knowledge of each is key. They should then all be progressed together, not all at once of course. I'd think it would be hard to master one fundamental without having the others at a certain level.

 

Looking quite good here. My only critique would be to drop that inside shoulder and lower your head about 6" but it is getting nit-picky.

 

PainfullySlo I appreciate taking the time to give some useful input.

Do have a question, I can look at my pictures and tell what I need to do. BUT doing it the way I KNOW it needs to be done is easier said then done.

Any suggestions on HOW to put into practice what needs to be done.

OR how do you tweak a bad habit.

Breaking a bad track habit is the same as breaking any bad habit but it reminds me of one of my favorite sayings. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

The process is pretty simple on paper, a lot harder to actually do.

1) learn the correct way to do whatever it is that you need to fix
2) do it the correct way
3) repeat ad nauseum until it becomes muscle memory and you do not have to think about it, your body just does it the right way.

You will need to focus almost exclusively on whatever it is that you want to fix. For racers, you will be slower while you sort this out. It is something that we have to suck up and deal with to be able to progress. I myself am in this exact situation. I have some issues that I need to address and I am certain that my next race laps will be abysmal while I work on fixing my issues.

 

Breaking a bad track habit is the same as breaking any bad habit but it reminds me of one of my favorite sayings. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

The process is pretty simple on paper, a lot harder to actually do.

1) learn the correct way to do whatever it is that you need to fix
2) do it the correct way
3) repeat ad nauseum until it becomes muscle memory and you do not have to think about it, your body just does it the right way.

You will need to focus almost exclusively on whatever it is that you want to fix. For racers, you will be slower while you sort this out. It is something that we have to suck up and deal with to be able to progress. I myself am in this exact situation. I have some issues that I need to address and I am certain that my next race laps will be abysmal while I work on fixing my issues.

Thanks, and I've been doing just that.

Was hoping of a more zen answer to leapfrog this SLOW progress.

Guess there isn't a fast resolution to fixing many years of bad habits.

 

Nope, you nailed it. Repetition, repetition, repetition. then do it again.

There is no shortcut to this process that I am aware of...if you find one, let me know ;-)

 

What you say about my riding style?


Poslano sa mog SM-G920F koristeći Tapatalk

 

Looking very good. As with some of the others, work on dropping that inside shoulder...it relieves any possibility that you are carrying weight/putting pressure on the bars but again, this is getting nitpicky. You look great.

 

Thanks for the reply. Based on what you said, here are the differences in what I do (as far as I am aware of):

1. I seem to put a lot more weight on the inside foot. I always thought of that as being the natural way. I used to not do that because I had a weird habit of twisting my foot on the peg, such that my heel was about the same height as my toes, sort of just hanging freely. That made it impossible to put any weight on the inside and I struggled in turns, until an STT instructor followed me around and noticed that. Then I started twisting my foot the right way (toes pointing toward the turn, heel locked in up by the heel guards), which allowed me to put more weight on the inside foot and turning instantly became WAY easier.

2. I do lock in my outside leg mostly like you said, except for the foot. I've always been told by many people (and the pros do the same if you look at pictures closely), to position the outside foot with the heel locked in on the peg. Most boots allow for this as they all have a heel that's around 0.5-1" tall. This seems comfortable to me, but the combination of doing this and what I said above in point 1, means more weight on the inside foot and less on the outside. The only times that I don't do that, and I position the outside foot like you said, is during chicanes and that's because there's usually not enough time to move my foot around between the side-to-side transitions.

I will try to do what you suggested next week and see how it goes.

Regarding the straight line accelerating issue, I am (or I think I am) at full tuck. I have a double bubble racing screen so the wind is not the problem. My seat is stock. Usually my butt just slides off to the end and my chest is on the tank. Do you squeeze the tank with your thighs on the straights? Thinking about it now, I don't think I do. I tend to just relax my legs on the straights which means they're not really tight against the tank....so maybe that's part of the reason?

When braking hard into a turn at the end of the straight, I too put a lot of pressure on the bars when straight up, but I tend to not relieve all that pressure once I turn in. I'm pretty much not relaxed until I crack the throttle open about mid turn which stabilizes the suspensions as well. When the bike has a lot of the weight on the front tire, I too have a lot of pressure on the handle bars. But I believe that just goes back to the issue above, about not being anchored properly on the bike through the turns.

I need to work on that. Though like you said, it's hard to brake old habits, especially when I go out on track and I forget about all that and I just try to go as fast as I can lol. Especially when I come up on a friend and we start dicing it out ....then I come back in the pits and think "Shit! I completely forgot to do what I said I was going to focus on!" lol

 

Hmm, to be honest I have never heard of anyone locking their boot heel onto the peg. It goes against everything that I could think of to make riding work but if pros are doing it there must be something to it. Maybe their bikes are set up in such a way that they only need to raise their foot that very short amount to lock in their leg. I guess I have short legs (30" inseam) so I am *always* on the balls of my feet. Always.

Anyway, it is perfectly fine to bear weight with BOTH legs in the turn. Your preference will be the outside, mostly because it is physically easier to hang off the bike with your outside leg than hold yourself up with the inside. If I had to take a guess I would say I am probably at 40% inside, 60% outside in any given turn.

On the straight line acceleration: I definitely squeeze the tank with my legs but it is VERY minor. I guess I just kind of stick in the seat. You might try moving your weight forward, closer to the tank. This will help to engage your legs on the pegs and counter some of those forces pushing you backwards.

For your turn 1 issue: There isn't much to say other than you need to practice letting go of those bars before you commit to the turn. As you trail brake into the turn you should have very little pressure on the bars, if any. I think if you solve your anchoring on the bike issue, this will take care of itself.

 

I think my point was that he said with the other fundamentals locked down you'll be much faster than other guys with perfect body positioning and that they're more important to the overal picture

 

Whether your a hooker or a baller is all down to personal preference is what I have always heard.

Edit: oh and on the topic of race day diet, I accidentally went all day without eating once. I highly recommend not doing that it was awful. Crushed like $20 worth of chik fil a that night.

 

LOL. Chicken binging aside, I nearly passed out mid-race once for that same reason. It is one of the few times I had to pit in before completing a race. Everything was starting to look like a power point presentation to me...there were second long gaps in my vision....bad juju.

Gotta fuel your bike, gotta fuel your body. Neither runs well on fumes.

 

1) First off, are you saying that if I can't do 20 laps without feeling like I'm going to pass out, I have terrible BP? I'll be honest, I've never been able to do that. Best I've ever done, at any track was 15 laps and it was in my first race ever, and I'm guessing the adrenaline is the only thing that got me through it because I felt like I was beat up after those 15 laps, and I haven't done it since then lol. But I always attributed that with being an out-of-shape fatass, not so much that I have terrible BP.

2. I can say with confidence that my biggest struggle is and has always been putting too much pressure on the handle bars. I know that because not only that I just feel it when riding, but also because my hands/wrists are what fatigue the fastest. I've had to come into the pits a few laps sooner than I planned at times only because my right hand was so numb that I could barely feel feedback from the brake lever and throttle, and I was starting to make mistakes.

But the question is, HOW do I fix that? I know the problem, and I know what you're supposed to do (pretty much what you stated above), but I seem to have a big problem with actually doing it. It's sort of like with golf...I know exactly what I need to do to hit a good shot, but I can only do it about 1/5 times. So do you have any tips on how to actually fix that? Also, once you start turning into a corner, when you obviously need to apply some pressure in order to turn the bike, do you just back off that pressure and only use the minimum amount required to keep the bike leaned over? Thing of a longer corner, like a carousel type where you're at full lean for a good 5+ seconds. Can you elaborate in more detail on how you distribute your weight in longer turns like that? I think part of my problem might be that I'm not anchoring myself well onto the bike, so in longer turns at full lean it feels like I'm about to fall off the bike and I use my inside hand to hold myself on, which is less than ideal. Sometimes I wonder how I don't crash with as much pressure I put on the inside handle bar....must be because modern day front race tires are just freakin awesome!

EDIT: also to add to the above, what about bar input under WOT on straights? Am I the only one that feels like I'm doing pull-ups when going full stick on the straights? I feel like i'm holding on for dear life or else I fly off the back of the bike, and that's while at full tuck. It was especially bad with my liter bike, but even on the ZX6R is pretty close to that. Don't know exact numbers, but figure these bikes can pull at least 0.5 G on acceleration if you do it right (in the power band). So holding on the bars at that is like holding half your weight in your hands. So at 220 lbs, the hands are holding a force of about 110 lbs, or 55 lbs each hand. So basically on every straightaway, it's like holding a 5 gal bucket full of water in each hand for about 10-15 seconds or however long it takes to travel the length of the straightaway. Then on the brakes, the G-force is even higher since the brakes are more powerful, so now it's like bench-pressing 100-150 lbs and holding it there for a few seconds (duration of braking zone). Granted, you use the tank to distribute that force a lot more so only a part of that is actually on the hands, but still adds up.[/QUOTE]


PS., you are totally correct about Kevin Schwantz. He and Rainey were always a study in contrast. On that note, the most consistent riders that I have personally witnessed in order of consistency were Rainey, Doug Polen, Troy Corser, and John McGuiness. Pure magic on a raging race bike.

Onto sbk1198's inquiry:
Q 1) It is utterly illogical to think that the rider ought to conform to a motorcycle. It's not going to happen; but... it is fairly easy to adapt the bike's ergonomics to suit said rider (to be sure, at a price). This is what I have come away with after a couple or more decades of racing, and of long distance touring on hard core sport bikes: a rider cannot ride fast, nor ride far if they are uncomfortable. Period. This premise is completely foundational!

So, what to change? Because one's feet literally are the foundation for a rider, it is a prerequisite to use FULLY adjustable rearsets. I have used a lot of rearsets, and the ones I continually go back for Rizoma. Sure, they are pretty, but everything is adjustable, along with Woodcraft folding toe pegs, these bad boys will get you back home, or to the pits after a crash. Next up are the SpeedyMoto adjustable clip-ons. Again, these are beautifully designed & made. Upon initial examination they don't wow most people, but they can significantly alter rider bike interface. A plus for racers is they utilize a 2-pc clamp, so can be changed out without having to remove the top triple clamp. I go with an after market saddle, this one from ZG. My all time favourite saddle are from Sargent Saddles, but unfortunately they do not make them for the Ninja. I prefer shorty levers since I have small - medium sized hands. Location seems to be critical for me, I like have them ever so slightly lower than straight out.

I am a middle-aged codger with a few too many lbs, but I will ride on a regular basis a full 10-hr day, stopping only for fuel - petrol for the ZX, and trail mix & protein bar(s) for me. I wear a Camelback w/a 50:50 fruit juice & a sports drink mix that stays ever so close to my maw. No caffeine.This sort of riding I regularly do 2 X a month, I go for 4-5 hr rides the alternating wks. Simply put, I love to ride. To be honest, there are those rare times where I'm not in the zone, I don't force it. I turn around and go home... usually cleaning & generally fiddling with the bike. Be smart. Be safe.

Q2) This is the universal sin amongst most riders. This is where bad habits come to roost. If you have front & rear stands, or have a friend up font & another out back holding you & bike up... I actually prefer the former to the latter. Sit on your bike in a normal riding position. Not a full racing tuck. Leant forward with your back straight, but definitely angled froward, with hands on the grips. They should be in position to operate the clutch & brake. Now take both hands off the grips at the same time. If you face planted you are doing it wrong. In fact, if your head bobbed at all you are doing it wrong. Your grip on the hand controls in riding a bike are very similar to that of playing golf: just enough grip to keep control... and to counter-steer. If you are 'leaning' on your hand controls your are feeding unnecessary/conflicting information to the front end. This will lead to a vague feeling, your turn ins will be wide/narrow, and you'll feel more fatigued because you are literally vibrating your energy stores out of yourself.

So, what can one do to keep the blood flowing?

It goes back to those adjustments you made with your rearsets & clip-ons. Your balls of your feet are your literal anchors. That's why it's so vital to have rearsets that fit YOU first & foremost. Up top, there are two lovely cut-outs, the 1st (lower) is for your knee/thigh; the 2nd is higher up and is angled inward & forward, this is for your forearm. If any of you ride horses you'll know what comes next. Use the outside leg to shove inward against the tank what weighting the inside peg. Also use that newly anchored forearm to bear some of the weight and to make sure you are not pulling the outer grip. Simultaneously counter-steering by PUSHING the inside arm. Push left, go left. I know, the devil is in the details.

OTHERS: This bit about WOT & doing pull up whilst rapidly accelerating is probably the 2nd most often sin committed by sport bike riders. Going back to the foundation, it's the legs that need to be used, not the arms. When accelerating weigh the balls of your feet and rotate your head/upper torso forward - lowly over the tank. Do Not Let Your Butt Slide Backwards - at all! When you pull your weight with your arms you'll create instability, even a head shake bad enough to incite a tank slapper. The reason it was worse with the litre bike is because they have so much F-ing power that they compress time frames whilst augmenting the force of gravity on you. And once again, it's back to same repeating theme, use your strong legs & not your much weaker arms. An aside, is that by using your legs and not your arms you are keeping your centre of gravity lower and more centralized. This in turn, contributes to the whole bike/rider combo stability.

Your Q regarding force and turning: as many here have stated prior, go read The Code (as in Keith). To put briefly, it all depends on the type of corner. Some are constant radius, some are decreasing radius, whilst others are increasing radius. Some corners are part of a complex where successive, yet differently conceived types of corners are linked giving the whole a vastly more complicated complexion than the constituents curves have on their own. I don't mean to avoid the original Q, but it's a lot more than the ample time we have going on at present. My advice is get the two books by Code, read and inwardly digest, then come back with more specifics. Truly, what I've pointed out previously will guide you in the correct path.

 

1) First off, are you saying that if I can't do 20 laps without feeling like I'm going to pass out, I have terrible BP? I'll be honest, I've never been able to do that. Best I've ever done, at any track was 15 laps and it was in my first race ever, and I'm guessing the adrenaline is the only thing that got me through it because I felt like I was beat up after those 15 laps, and I haven't done it since then lol. But I always attributed that with being an out-of-shape fatass, not so much that I have terrible BP.

2. I can say with confidence that my biggest struggle is and has always been putting too much pressure on the handle bars. I know that because not only that I just feel it when riding, but also because my hands/wrists are what fatigue the fastest. I've had to come into the pits a few laps sooner than I planned at times only because my right hand was so numb that I could barely feel feedback from the brake lever and throttle, and I was starting to make mistakes.

But the question is, HOW do I fix that? I know the problem, and I know what you're supposed to do (pretty much what you stated above), but I seem to have a big problem with actually doing it. It's sort of like with golf...I know exactly what I need to do to hit a good shot, but I can only do it about 1/5 times. So do you have any tips on how to actually fix that? Also, once you start turning into a corner, when you obviously need to apply some pressure in order to turn the bike, do you just back off that pressure and only use the minimum amount required to keep the bike leaned over? Thing of a longer corner, like a carousel type where you're at full lean for a good 5+ seconds. Can you elaborate in more detail on how you distribute your weight in longer turns like that? I think part of my problem might be that I'm not anchoring myself well onto the bike, so in longer turns at full lean it feels like I'm about to fall off the bike and I use my inside hand to hold myself on, which is less than ideal. Sometimes I wonder how I don't crash with as much pressure I put on the inside handle bar....must be because modern day front race tires are just freakin awesome!

EDIT: also to add to the above, what about bar input under WOT on straights? Am I the only one that feels like I'm doing pull-ups when going full stick on the straights? I feel like i'm holding on for dear life or else I fly off the back of the bike, and that's while at full tuck. It was especially bad with my liter bike, but even on the ZX6R is pretty close to that. Don't know exact numbers, but figure these bikes can pull at least 0.5 G on acceleration if you do it right (in the power band). So holding on the bars at that is like holding half your weight in your hands. So at 220 lbs, the hands are holding a force of about 110 lbs, or 55 lbs each hand. So basically on every straightaway, it's like holding a 5 gal bucket full of water in each hand for about 10-15 seconds or however long it takes to travel the length of the straightaway. Then on the brakes, the G-force is even higher since the brakes are more powerful, so now it's like bench-pressing 100-150 lbs and holding it there for a few seconds (duration of braking zone). Granted, you use the tank to distribute that force a lot more so only a part of that is actually on the hands, but still adds up.

PS., you are totally correct about Kevin Schwantz. He and Rainey were always a study in contrast. On that note, the most consistent riders that I have personally witnessed in order of consistency were Rainey, Doug Polen, Troy Corser, and John McGuiness. Pure magic on a raging race bike.

Onto sbk1198's inquiry:
Q 1) It is utterly illogical to think that the rider ought to conform to a motorcycle. It's not going to happen; but... it is fairly easy to adapt the bike's ergonomics to suit said rider (to be sure, at a price). This is what I have come away with after a couple or more decades of racing, and of long distance touring on hard core sport bikes: a rider cannot ride fast, nor ride far if they are uncomfortable. Period. This premise is completely foundational!

So, what to change? Because one's feet literally are the foundation for a rider, it is a prerequisite to use FULLY adjustable rearsets. I have used a lot of rearsets, and the ones I continually go back for Rizoma. Sure, they are pretty, but everything is adjustable, along with Woodcraft folding toe pegs, these bad boys will get you back home, or to the pits after a crash. Next up are the SpeedyMoto adjustable clip-ons. Again, these are beautifully designed & made. Upon initial examination they don't wow most people, but they can significantly alter rider bike interface. A plus for racers is they utilize a 2-pc clamp, so can be changed out without having to remove the top triple clamp. I go with an after market saddle, this one from ZG. My all time favourite saddle are from Sargent Saddles, but unfortunately they do not make them for the Ninja. I prefer shorty levers since I have small - medium sized hands. Location seems to be critical for me, I like have them ever so slightly lower than straight out.

I am a middle-aged codger with a few too many lbs, but I will ride on a regular basis a full 10-hr day, stopping only for fuel - petrol for the ZX, and trail mix & protein bar(s) for me. I wear a Camelback w/a 50:50 fruit juice & a sports drink mix that stays ever so close to my maw. No caffeine.This sort of riding I regularly do 2 X a month, I go for 4-5 hr rides the alternating wks. Simply put, I love to ride. To be honest, there are those rare times where I'm not in the zone, I don't force it. I turn around and go home... usually cleaning & generally fiddling with the bike. Be smart. Be safe.

Q2) This is the universal sin amongst most riders. This is where bad habits come to roost. If you have front & rear stands, or have a friend up font & another out back holding you & bike up... I actually prefer the former to the latter. Sit on your bike in a normal riding position. Not a full racing tuck. Leant forward with your back straight, but definitely angled froward, with hands on the grips. They should be in position to operate the clutch & brake. Now take both hands off the grips at the same time. If you face planted you are doing it wrong. In fact, if your head bobbed at all you are doing it wrong. Your grip on the hand controls in riding a bike are very similar to that of playing golf: just enough grip to keep control... and to counter-steer. If you are 'leaning' on your hand controls your are feeding unnecessary/conflicting information to the front end. This will lead to a vague feeling, your turn ins will be wide/narrow, and you'll feel more fatigued because you are literally vibrating your energy stores out of yourself.

So, what can one do to keep the blood flowing?

It goes back to those adjustments you made with your rearsets & clip-ons. Your balls of your feet are your literal anchors. That's why it's so vital to have rearsets that fit YOU first & foremost. Up top, there are two lovely cut-outs, the 1st (lower) is for your knee/thigh; the 2nd is higher up and is angled inward & forward, this is for your forearm. If any of you ride horses you'll know what comes next. Use the outside leg to shove inward against the tank what weighting the inside peg. Also use that newly anchored forearm to bear some of the weight and to make sure you are not pulling the outer grip. Simultaneously counter-steering by PUSHING the inside arm. Push left, go left. I know, the devil is in the details.

OTHERS: This bit about WOT & doing pull up whilst rapidly accelerating is probably the 2nd most often sin committed by sport bike riders. Going back to the foundation, it's the legs that need to be used, not the arms. When accelerating weigh the balls of your feet and rotate your head/upper torso forward - lowly over the tank. Do Not Let Your Butt Slide Backwards - at all! When you pull your weight with your arms you'll create instability, even a head shake bad enough to incite a tank slapper. The reason it was worse with the litre bike is because they have so much F-ing power that they compress time frames whilst augmenting the force of gravity on you. And once again, it's back to same repeating theme, use your strong legs & not your much weaker arms. An aside, is that by using your legs and not your arms you are keeping your centre of gravity lower and more centralized. This in turn, contributes to the whole bike/rider combo stability.

Your Q regarding force and turning: as many here have stated prior, go read The Code (as in Keith). To put briefly, it all depends on the type of corner. Some are constant radius, some are decreasing radius, whilst others are increasing radius. Some corners are part of a complex where successive, yet differently conceived types of corners are linked giving the whole a vastly more complicated complexion than the constituents curves have on their own. I don't mean to avoid the original Q, but it's a lot more than the ample time we have going on at present. My advice is get the two books by Code, read and inwardly digest, then come back with more specifics. Truly, what I've pointed out previously will guide you in the correct path.[/QUOTE]

awesome!

 

^Thanks for the feedback. I will definitely try to focus more on doing some of those things you guys suggested. And you're absolutely right about creating instability and even a tank slapper if you pull too hard with your arms. That has already happened to me a few times with this bike, and every time I relaxed my arms and took pressure off, it regained stability. My biggest problem I think is not having that reflex/muscle memory to do all those things all the time. One that you mentioned, is resting your outside arm on the gas tank in a turn. I've always had a Ben Spies style where both my elbows are sticking way out, which means it's hard for me to relax the arms. I need to focus on it every turn, but more often than not, I focus on it for a couple of turns then forget about it and go back to my old ways/bad habits. I need to develop that muscle memory and try to break some of those bad habits.

 

Again, thanks for the advice guys. I tried to work on some of these things on Saturday, and I believe I noticed an improvement (lap times agree with that too!). It was a bit hard to judge due to being 15-20 degrees hotter than it's been so far this year, but I felt like I wasn't as tired after each session as I used to be, and my arm pump issue didn't seem to present itself until the very end of the day when I did 2 back-to-back 8-lap sprints, and even then it was really only in the last 3 laps.

Worked on resting my outside arm on the tank more and using my legs and abs more to hang on and that seem to make me a bit more relaxed than usual, and it allowed me to be a bit lighter on the handle bars (except for 2 corners where I've always struggled with...and I almost crashed once because of that).

Still need to develop the muscle memory to do that all the time though. I had to constantly remind myself to do that. I caught myself being very tense on the bike at the start of the first race and had to remind myself to relax more because being tense wasn't going to do me any good. After watching myself from Dan's onboard GoPro, it looks like I still need to drop my head and my inside arm a bit more and that might help me carry a bit more speed, safely.

 

Glad that you were able to realize some faster laps this past weekend! Good work!

As for the rest, changing riding style is one of the most difficult things to do because we all want to fall back to what feels the most comfortable/easiest which is not always the best way to go around the track.

Keep with it, spend track sessions (not races, enough going on in the brain) devoted to simply focusing on body position and before you know it you will develop that muscle memory.

A quick aside: One of my students this past weekend was struggling with the same BP issue..head high and stiff inner shoulder/arm. We spent 2 days at the school focusing on that and when racing this past weekend he gained 5 seconds (novice pace but still a huge jump). I can't claim that it all came from the change to his body position (he says so) it certainly played a large role in that gain.

Food for thought =)

 

Just did my first track day at big willow on saturday... how am I looking?

I feel like I could do a better job of looking farther into the turns

(pics in order: T2, T3, T3)

 

A common thing that most people could probably improve on. The faster you go, the farther you need to look through the turns generally (not counting blind turns). Coming from riding on the street we're usually not wired to do that. It's not really muscle memory to be looking 100-200 yards ahead while you're still leaned over into a turn. Most people tend to look about 20-30 yards ahead at best, which for really slow turns might be fine, but for most turns it's not. It just takes a bit of practice.

 

Anyone have pointers on what I should work on here? Was pretty consistent with body position throughout the day, this only my third track day and first time with the zx6. Was working on getting my body low enough to get my arm on the tank to stay loose. Only problem I am having is I think I am pointing my toe too far out and keep hitting my toe slider at the apex. I am pivoting the ball of my foot on the point of the peg and wonder if i should try to move it in close on the peg?

Also trying to keep my butt far enough back to keep my outside knee against the tank.

Any thoughts?

 

For sure that toe will bite you as you get faster and carry more lean. I always have my foot against the heel guard and pivot my leg from there...it makes for a much more stable platform anyway.

The big thing that I see is that you seem to be a little crossed up. Your spine is not straight as your butt is off the bike further than your head is. You have your head down, which is great, but work on getting it a little further off the side of the bike so that your spine is straight and in line with your butt.

Also, relax that inner elbow and let it move away from your body. That will help with getting your head to where it should be as well.

 

Slo or PG or TDH or whoever else who have been doing this ALOT longer than me, I would love if you have any advice or tips for me.


Here's a little video from VIR NORTH course this past Saturday. I have only been in intermediate group for 2 track days but definitely seeing the benefits of riding with faster riders and pretty much getting a tow all day long. I have shaved 11 seconds off my personal best time (which is still slow) since being in I group. on this particular day I found an additional 2.5 seconds

This is 5 laps. the last 4 laps or so was fun. Chasing a guy that I couldn't seem to get around. I was on my SV so I lost a lot in the straights but was fun trying to play catch up. I showed him a wheel twice, thinking he would let me get around since its just a track day and not a race but he was making me work for it haha


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUJjP_hKPDM






this is just a compilation I made. I am horrible at editing but I started the video with one clean lap. I thought this was my personal best lap but I grabbed the wrong one. oh well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpiwWjuDG-w





as always any critique is welcome. I know there are lots and lots of things I need to work on. One thing you will see on these videos is that I wasn't using all of the track. I did a lot of that on purpose. I have been working on being off line. I learned that I had no idea what to do to if someone was on my line and I wanted to get around. I also know that I need to stop using the clutch to shift on straight but its a hard habit to break but I am working on it.


THANKS!

 

There are a few things that immediately become apparent, some of which you mentioned but since I have not seen a 'good' lap, I am going to bring it up anyway so forgive me if this seems overly critical. It is solely in the interest of your improvement.

1) Shifting. Since you are listing your lap times I am assuming that it is your goal to be faster. Every time you pull that clutch lever in, it costs you at least .1 second. Add that up for a single lap and you just shaved 1.5 seconds off of your lap time, at a minimum at no cost to yourself. More importantly, there are a few turns where you are upshifting while leaned over which drastically upsets your chassis as you unload and reload your suspension. It may not be a problem now but as your pace quickens (and your lean angles become more extreme) it will cause crashes. Learn to do clutchless upshifts and you will not only be faster, but safer.

2) line selection. As you said you were specifically not using all of the race track, which is all well and good however you were at best several feet off of the apexes. The north VIR course is 2.25 miles but I would bet that you are actually riding 2.35+ miles. Learn to become comfortable with putting your tire right at the apex. In most cases this means putting your knee on or over the rumble strips. Start slowly and gradually progress as this can cause a fair amount of panic in the beginning. Logically, you know that if your knee is on the curb your tire must be at least 2' further outside so you are safe. Keep that in mind as you practice this.

2A) line selection, continued. Know your plan. What is the goal of each turn you are entering? Most of VIR is what we call "roll speed focused" meaning that you want to simply go through it as fast as possible which generally requires the classic "outside-inside-outside" line. Some turns are drive focused, and others are entry focused. Learn the differences and make sure that your line is designed to get you through that turn the fastest way possible. Oh, and make sure you use all the racetrack I know you mentioned this however it has been my experience that people which are a little apprehensive about hitting a tight apex are also apprehensive about putting a tire near the outside edge of the track. Again, work slowly at this so that you do not cause panic.

3) Braking. If you really want to make time, you need to learn to trust and use your brakes to greater effect. Again, this is something that can cause some panic so go at it slowly. Basically, you are braking too soon and not as hard as you could be. There is a TON of time in this.

4) On throttle transitions. You are a bit late getting back on the gas after each apex, and it seems that you are doing a gradual roll-on. Follow the #1 rule of drives - Gas on, Bike up. Meaning that you stand the bike up as you feed throttle. On the SV, that throttle is basically an on-off switch and does not require much modulation, especially on a flowing track like VIR.

All of this assumes that you are on quality rubber that is up to temp and that you are not doing anything horribly wrong with your body position to create any artificial ceilings for your traction.

 

If you are looking for turn points, I like to review this vid before I go to VIR north. I was planning to go that weekend, but family issues took precedent.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P66mn70S2M0

Listen when they get back on the gas, it's pretty early.

Your a brave man trying to outbrake those 600s with stock SV brakes. I put SS lines on mine with Versa pads and they were still nothing compared to my ZX6R. The good thing about the SV is there is a fair amount of engine braking and with less speed down the straight, makes it acceptable.



And yep PS doesn't do anything halfway.......

 

Thanks OC. I will def save that video as well. This is the one I like to watch before going there. He takes a very different line through turn 1 but besides that I think its pretty cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhitl4Yswbo

 

I'm hitting a wall here with body positioning.

Look at the photo. I have my heels solidly planted onto the peg while the inside leg is far out as it can, at least that's what it feels like. I have short legs so my ass is as far back as possible on the seat and the legs are hooked onto the side of the seat instead of the tank.

I'm scraping toes instead of knee. Is this it for me?

 

Your heels shouldn't be planted on pegs. Your toes should be on the pegs.

Also, rear sets should help if you don't already have them.