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Hey guys

My 06 636 has 25k miles on it (40k km). I brought it into a reputable shop for the first valve insp/adjust.

After the inspection these were the numbers the mechanic wrote down: (below)

The only one out of spec was a .004, manual states it should be at least .0047

He said he can adjust it for another hour's rate ($100 incl tax)

But he also said it was off by such a minor amount that he wouldn't bother if it was his own bike.

So I didn't get it adjusted. What do you think, wrong choice or will it be fine?






Thanks
 

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The right thing would have been to get it shimmed while he was in there. FYI, you aren't going to get another 25k out of that valve. And what do you think that valve is going to do the more you ride it? That's right, it's going to get tighter and tighter. But hey, sounds like you made a new friend in the process.
 

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If those are the clearances, There all out, way to tight.
If the 004 is out, what are the 005's?

We need rivers..............
 

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What I'd like to know is why a reputable shop is only recording to within 0.001...should have better feelers than that, right?
 

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What I'd like to know is why a reputable shop is only recording to within 0.001...should have better feelers than that, right?
Since they're all at the limits, just get him to shim them back into the golden middle!

Taking off the camshaft cover is the easiest part after getting all the way in there to just take measurements.

Another 7000mi and you'd need to get all 16 adjusted anyways. Why do the same job twice if you could do it now and not have to worry for another 15,000mi.
 

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What I'd like to know is why a reputable shop is only recording to within 0.001...should have better feelers than that, right?
A shop in Canada, that doesn't have metric feeler gauges? This is supposed to be a 'reputable' shop?

Not sure I would want them to do the adjustments, to be honest. But I would want someone with better tools to check the measurements. If someone with the right tools says they are too tight, get them adjusted.
 

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If those are the clearances, There all out, way to tight.
If the 004 is out, what are the 005's?

We need rivers..............
.005 is between .0047 and .0075. :) Regarding what I would do, I would have been doing the job myself and not paying someone to do it so I would have adjusted them (even the .005 ones). But, your bike isn't going to explode by not doing it this time, however you've already spent x amount to get in there, the extra 100 bucks to finish the job properly isn't that big of a deal in my opinion, but as I said, I would have had him do more than just that one, get them all around center of spec. But, those are the intake valves and don't really change nearly as much as the exhaust side. Once you get the cams off doing all of them properly isn't much more time than doing 1 properly.
 

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What I'd like to know is why a reputable shop is only recording to within 0.001...should have better feelers than that, right?
I realize I'm replying to a bit of an old thread, but as I'm looking for valve info, I figured others might be as well and could benefit. No one measures anything to the 0.0001" outsides of QC lab. Additionally, no one is going to have "feeler gauges" (at that level you call them Jo blocks or Gauge blocks) that go to the 0.0001 that they would ever think about shoving into a motor as they are way to expensive (think $1000s). Most good feelers gauges have a tolerance or +/-0.00012 - 0.0002. The manual does give measurements to the 0.0001, but only because mm don't translate exactly to inches and I guess they don't want to truncate or round at 0.001.
 

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all 16 should have been adjusted----they are all at the bottom limit of "acceptable"


And why would some hack mechanic need to ask the owner what is the right thing to do---fucking fire his ass...
 
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I realize I'm replying to a bit of an old thread, but as I'm looking for valve info, I figured others might be as well and could benefit. No one measures anything to the 0.0001" outsides of QC lab. Additionally, no one is going to have "feeler gauges" (at that level you call them Jo blocks or Gauge blocks) that go to the 0.0001 that they would ever think about shoving into a motor as they are way to expensive (think $1000s). Most good feelers gauges have a tolerance or +/-0.00012 - 0.0002. The manual does give measurements to the 0.0001, but only because mm don't translate exactly to inches and I guess they don't want to truncate or round at 0.001.
I have feeler gauges in .00025" increments up to .008"-starting at .001" then in .0005" increments after that.......

I did not spend thousands---think I spend about $2 per and they are 10" long
 

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I realize I'm replying to a bit of an old thread, but as I'm looking for valve info, I figured others might be as well and could benefit. No one measures anything to the 0.0001" outsides of QC lab. Additionally, no one is going to have "feeler gauges" (at that level you call them Jo blocks or Gauge blocks) that go to the 0.0001 that they would ever think about shoving into a motor as they are way to expensive (think $1000s). Most good feelers gauges have a tolerance or +/-0.00012 - 0.0002. The manual does give measurements to the 0.0001, but only because mm don't translate exactly to inches and I guess they don't want to truncate or round at 0.001.
I have feeler gauges in .00025" increments up to .008"-starting at .001" then in .0005" increments after that.......

I did not spend thousands---think I spend about $2 per and they are 10" long

I was thinking this exact same thing. I never seen feeler gauges that small but I did a quick google search and found a few. However, I would not trust them. There is no way that a feeler gauge that small can hold an accurate tolerance on it's quoted size. In QC labs and Shops we had indicator gauges (costing in the thousands) that would accurately read that small.

To give you an idea on how small 0.0001" is....

The average human hair size (width) is .003" to .004".

So lets look at one thousands of an inch which looks like this: .001" (3-4 times smaller than the width of a human hair).

Now let's take that .001" and divide that up ten(10) more times... Then take one of those pieces we just divided up ten(10) times and that will give us 0.0001" (one tenth of an inch) See where I'm going?

So your valve measured to .0047" which is 4 thousands and seven tenths of an inch.

Think about that for a few seconds and let it soak in as to how small that is. And at that small of a measurement, adjusts are super hard. And I mean HARD. We usually use what is called "Dykem". Dykem is a fluid that is used, in some cases, for shimming and is about .0001" thick with a light layer.
 

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I was thinking this exact same thing. I never seen feeler gauges that small but I did a quick google search and found a few. However, I would not trust them. There is no way that a feeler gauge that small can hold an accurate tolerance on it's quoted size. In QC labs and Shops we had indicator gauges (costing in the thousands) that would accurately read that small.

To give you an idea on how small 0.0001" is....

The average human hair size (width) is .003" to .004".

So lets look at one thousands of an inch which looks like this: .001" (3-4 times smaller than the width of a human hair).

Now let's take that .001" and divide that up ten(10) more times... Then take one of those pieces we just divided up ten(10) times and that will give us 0.0001" (one tenth of an inch) See where I'm going?

So your valve measured to .0047" which is 4 thousands and seven tenths of an inch.

Think about that for a few seconds and let it soak in as to how small that is. And at that small of a measurement, adjusts are super hard. And I mean HARD. We usually use what is called "Dykem". Dykem is a fluid that is used, in some cases, for shimming and is about .0001" thick with a light layer.
I think you haven't ever actually used a feeler gauge or adjusted valves based on these statements.......

granted I have been doing this a very long time but on screw adjuster rocker arms I can feel the difference between .001" and .002" when I am adjusting some of those that are that tight of clearances with nothing more than my finger tips.......

.0047" is not 4 thousandths and 7 tenths

it is however 4 thousandths and 7 ten thousandths

or machinists commonly say....... 47 tenths


and I can mic my feeler gauges and they are all 0 to + .0001 of the size indicated (thus they are all plus + feeler gauges)
I do not know why you feel it would be so tough to hold an exacting spec when making them......I have pin gauges that are even closer tolerances than this and go smaller too--- I suppose you think they can't be accurate either?
 

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I think you haven't ever actually used a feeler gauge or adjusted valves based on these statements.......

granted I have been doing this a very long time but on screw adjuster rocker arms I can feel the difference between .001" and .002" when I am adjusting some of those that are that tight of clearances with nothing more than my finger tips.......

.0047" is not 4 thousandths and 7 tenths

it is however 4 thousandths and 7 ten thousandths

or machinists commonly say....... 47 tenths


and I can mic my feeler gauges and they are all 0 to + .0001 of the size indicated (thus they are all plus + feeler gauges)
I do not know why you feel it would be so tough to hold an exacting spec when making them......I have pin gauges that are even closer tolerances than this and go smaller too--- I suppose you think they can't be accurate either?
Thanks for the clarification on terminology.

Also, I build drag cars so, yes, I have done valve lashes many times using feeler gauges. I also gap my plugs to .018" so I use a feeler gauge for that, as well. I am, however, not a machinist. I was a production supervisor at a plant and I would try to learn from the machinists in the machine shop as much as I could when I had extra time to stop in there. I have also made adjustments and shimmed multiple pieces of tooling on machines to the .0001" and (probably from my lack of experience) was very difficult for me. You adjust one side of the tooling to spec and then the other side is out .0005". It was a pain in the butt to get it all dialed in and that's why i stated above it is hard. It has been a while, now, since I have worked at that job so sorry I missed one word in my explanation and clarification as to how small a tenth is.

I am speaking clearly on my past experiences. So if your experiences are different from mine, then please, state them. But don't be a dick about. No one here is trying to show off so you're on your own with that one.

p.s. please keep assumptions to yourself.
 

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Ok, well, since my comment started a bunch of this more recent conversation, I'll go ahead and say that I don't actually know that much about this stuff. I've never done it myself (yet :D), but every time I've had it done by a shop, I've got more precise measurements from them than that, so I assumed that it's normal to have more accurate feeler gauges :O

That being said, seems like multiple people here who are more knowledgeable than I have perfectly valid points and there's no need to go at each other's throats over it. I'm guessing that everyone in this thread has, at some point, made minor mistakes in terminology or typing errors that have changed the meaning of what was being said. Let's try not to be overly dickish when pointing those out to each other AND let's try not to get all offended and defensive when they are pointed out :roll:

Now, I'm going to go to another thread and hope this one just dies (or at least doesn't get any less civil - more civil would be unnecessary, but less would be non-ideal :O)

Edit: Just to clarify, I don't think anybody was being a dick or was getting overly aggressive or anything like that yet...I just thought I'd try to help head it off...probably won't work, but might be worth a try?
 
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He said don't be a dick about it...lol I remember the best read was when Rivers told a peep to go round up every tool he had in his tool boxes and throw them away cause he clearly did not have any knowledge or skill to use them...lol That is my best rivers moment..
 

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He said don't be a dick about it...lol I remember the best read was when Rivers told a peep to go round up every tool he had in his tool boxes and throw them away cause he clearly did not have any knowledge or skill to use them...lol That is my best rivers moment..
You had a "best" rivers moment.........?


Damn it, I am not doing my job properly then. ;)
 

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I'm not worried about it.
ZX6RTrent I see your point and understand your view, the Joys of manufacturing. I have been in it for close to 30 years and the expense we have to pay for tooling is goddamn dumb. Mr. Rivers would cry if he had to pay $88.00 each per feeler gauge. A good set of 10 would only be $880.00. Hell a good hand tool is $800 - $2,500.00 each, and forget about it if you have any Medical manufacturers you have as customers , that price just went up 3x. But back to valves I have to do mine this fall. I have 21,000 miles on it. Do I invest in a set of feelers to perform said task or just leave my garage door up all night then call Safeco in the morning.
 

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ZX6RTrent I see your point and understand your view, the Joys of manufacturing. I have been in it for close to 30 years and the expense we have to pay for tooling is goddamn dumb. Mr. Rivers would cry if he had to pay $88.00 each per feeler gauge. A good set of 10 would only be $880.00. Hell a good hand tool is $800 - $2,500.00 each, and forget about it if you have any Medical manufacturers you have as customers , that price just went up 3x. But back to valves I have to do mine this fall. I have 21,000 miles on it. Do I invest in a set of feelers to perform said task or just leave my garage door up all night then call Safeco in the morning.
Keep in mind, Rivers spent something like $1,470 on a SINGLE order of shims, and has appx $220k invested in shims in his shop supply. This is NOT the guy you call out on how much precision costs.

I'd say, if you have patience, mechanical aptitude and a willingness to do things right even if it takes longer, then you should be fine tackling the job. That said, I haven't done the valves on my bike yet (only 10k miles) but the above is my general approach to repairing my mechanical and automotive possessions.
 
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