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So back in college a bunch of friends n myself would go to a local meet everyweek, well 1 of are first couple nights we were driving ran into a group (2 evo 8's a 600gixxer 1 honda) and followed them thinking they were going to the next place to meet.well they did sum pulls. :eek:mg. F***ing awsome anyway they got off at a gas staition so we follwed.well 1 of the evos would race the gixxer.they said (out of 5 pulls) the evo won 2. gixxer 3. it was who shifted better and evo guy didnt have car for to long so...well we started to talk we asked bout the mods,an he told us said it ran on e-85...:confused: the next day my buddy and i began are long research into e-85.now id say many of us (me n my buddies) are pro e-85. my buddy and i both said why not throw on bike? so to this day it crosses my mind when i read about pc's and bazazz's and ecu flash. anyone tune for e-85 in their bike? or want to? ive tryed to find this on other forums (car and bike) but it gets hammered with haters.
 

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I actually planned on running e85 on a spare motor I had, but ended up trading it for a bazzaz system. There are a few caveats to running e85, and I was never sure the bike would make more power on it or not.

From what I've read, the pros of the system are that it burns at a lower temp, and that it has a small lubricating capacity. The truth of that, I'm not really sure.

The negatives are that it makes something like 10-15% less power than e10 or w/e gas you normally use. So you end up having to run a LOT more fuel.

I was planning on cranking up the CR in my engine to help, but got discouraged when I couldn't find the proper cylinder base gaskets to increase the CR w/o screwing up the squish.
 

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Quite a few friends of mine ran e85 in subies and evos, I was also under the impression that it burned hotter the normal pump gas, doubt it would be a problem tho as most motorcycles have SS valves. I've also heard that it can eat up fuel lines for some reason.
 

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I drive 2 hours to get gas with no ethanol in it. But I don't have a tuner and running completely stock setup so I hope to take advantage of the extra energy in pure gasoline since I'm not changing the tune.
 

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E85 is the equivalent to 105 octane. Its useless on a NA engine considering you gain maybe 1-2 hp if that. To do it you'd need to open up the restrictor on the bike, massive tuning, run a hotter plug and lower not raise compression unless you plan on changing vavles every 1500 miles.

Useless on an na bike. That is all.

Also it will corrode and eat through lines pretty quick and I'd also upgrade the fuel pump.

Fuel lesson brought to you by SSGSXR...
 

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Yea N/A prob not worth the hassle boosted motors oh yea its worth it!!!! Last boosted motor I built think back 3-4yrs I tuned it then did meth injection then swapped injectors and did a e85 tune hella quick car lsx motor 5.3! I am pretty sure E85 does burn hotter though! Only bad part is hard to find E85 sometimes If I were to build another boosted car id go with meth injection!
 

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Running E85 in a N/A motor isn't really worth it in my opinion. I've personally ran E85 in my turbocharge motor because it burns cooler, it allowed me to run more timing without detonation and it was cheap. E85 will not eat rubber hose or corrode line that a bunch of BS. I ran E85 on my car for years without any problem, the only thing it does is break up the sediment in the gas tank. So, be prepare to replace fuel filter because that is going to get clog up. One thing I dislike about running E85 is different season is different blends.
 

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i run E85 in my evo, its extremely beneficial in boosted cars because of the higher knock and detonation resistance.

because of that we can run higher boost pressures and more aggressive timing thus making more power.

On an N/A motor the gains wont be as great but it should allow for more aggressive timing
 

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So a ram air system is still normally aspirated? I thought it worked similarly to a turbo but speed dependant not rev dependant
 

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E85 in a NA car or bike is equal to LOSS OF HORSEPOWER and lower Fuel Economy, as mentioned throw on some boost and you will be happier as you can run more boost and change the ignition timing... Most people still do not understand the higher octane the harder it is to burn.
 

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So a ram air system is still normally aspirated? I thought it worked similarly to a turbo but speed dependant not rev dependant
"Similar" is a very generous statement for the comparison. I'll reference it to volumetric efficiency (VE), since that's probably the easiest way. A normal non-ramair, naturally aspirated motor will usually have a VE of 80%, give or take 20-40% depending on the engine. This means that if an engine is a 1.0L with a VE of 100%, 1 liter of air/fuel will pass through the engine every time all the cylinders fires.

So a N/A engine with a 80% VE will pass 0.8L

A ram air engine, just uses a pressure differential to force more air into the engine, boosting VE by some amount at high speeds. I've yet to see real data on how much it helps, but Kawi claims something like a 10hp gain I think for most of our engines. It can usually boost VE above 100%, which is awesome.

I have read that a "perfect" ram air system will only increase air flowed by 1.1%, how true that is, I'm not sure.

So, say a 1.0L with a VE of 110% at high speeds, it'll use 1.1L of air/fuel

Then a turbo, will act as a pressure exchanger to impart pressure to the intake flow from the exhaust flow. At sea level, atmospheric pressure is 14.7psi. So, if a turbo system runs ~15psi (over 1atm), it will double the VE of the engine, 30psi=triple

So, a turbo 1.0L w/ 15psi that was originally 100%VE, will be 200%, and use 2.0L of air/fuel
30psi originally 100%VE will be 300%, and use 3.0L air/fuel


You can also do some neat things with valve timing to increase VE. If you calculate it properly, you can leave the intake valve open for a little bit while the piston is already beginning to come back up and compress the air/fuel charge. If enough air is flowing towards the cylinder, it continue to forcefeed more charge into the cylinder until the cylinder has more pressure than the air in the intake channels.

At higher rpms it has more of an effect than at lower rpms, due the larger vacuum created during the intake stroke. this can have a dramatic effect, IIRC my s2000 has something around a VE of 122% stock, w/o a ram air intake. That's pretty much unheard of for N/A motors. I'd love to see the engines data for running both of these. I assume our bikes do. I'm a little too lazy to look right now though.


I realize I just highjacked this thread. But I was thinking about this stuff a little before I saw it. "There's no such thing as a free lunch", and a turbo isn't totally efficient. But its much more efficient than a lot of superchargers. So I was wondering how efficient ram-airs are. They basically take advantage of being open to the air. Basically, they increase your power, but they do that by having a crappier aerodynamic profile, which is very important on bikes. Kawi claimed that the 05 zx6rs new fairings made it require 10hp less to sustain 150mph than the 04 zx6r. So yeah, 10hp is one gained at speed is one thing, but how much hp of that goes to overcoming the additional air resistance.
 

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Also, one last note before I get back to being productive.

Gasoline's perfect stoiciometric ratio is 14.7:1. So for every 1 molecule of gasoline, you need 14.7 molecules of oxygen.

E85's perfect ratio is 9.76. So every 1 of e85, you need 9.76 of air. So, if e85 has lets say, 15% less power than gasoline, thats okay. So you're now using 68% of the fuel to get 85% of the power.

However, you're still going to flow the same amount of air, so you have to use more e85 to get the same VE. 45.9% more to be exact. You'll burn more ethanol than gas, but you'll also get something like 24% more power N/A if you're tuned properly.

Realistically you won't 24%, its hard to say what you'd get. The fuel map stock usually doesn't hit 14.7, and most places I've seen say you don't want 9.76 for e85 or else you'll detonate.

edit: I think this is right, I might have screwed up the numbers though, its pretty late and I did this all in my head.
 

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Steel,
On the Ram Air topic, someone I knew actually did some testing on a kawi ram air system it was a 06-07 zx10r, measured Air pressure & vacuum at various speeds.
If not mistaken he found that at something like 180mph the ram air gave the bike something like .1 bar.
Will try and find his info on this.
 

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I wouldn't agree that e85 doesn't have any gains for n/a vehicles. Might not add a lot of power increase but it will save your motor from over heating or blowing. E 85 does burn at colder temp which means lower combustion tempature. On track days or any day you know your gonna ride hard I would say you should add a mix in with some premium fuel. Keeping your bike at cooler temps is always a good thing.
 

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Colder temps = more boost for forced induction which is why they have greater gains. With an e85 set up on stock forced induction set up your looking at major hp gains. Almost as much as getting bigger turbo or SC
 

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"Similar" is a very generous statement for the comparison. I'll reference it to volumetric efficiency (VE), since that's probably the easiest way. A normal non-ramair, naturally aspirated motor will usually have a VE of 80%, give or take 20-40% depending on the engine. This means that if an engine is a 1.0L with a VE of 100%, 1 liter of air/fuel will pass through the engine every time all the cylinders fires.

So a N/A engine with a 80% VE will pass 0.8L

A ram air engine, just uses a pressure differential to force more air into the engine, boosting VE by some amount at high speeds. I've yet to see real data on how much it helps, but Kawi claims something like a 10hp gain I think for most of our engines. It can usually boost VE above 100%, which is awesome.

I have read that a "perfect" ram air system will only increase air flowed by 1.1%, how true that is, I'm not sure.

So, say a 1.0L with a VE of 110% at high speeds, it'll use 1.1L of air/fuel

Then a turbo, will act as a pressure exchanger to impart pressure to the intake flow from the exhaust flow. At sea level, atmospheric pressure is 14.7psi. So, if a turbo system runs ~15psi (over 1atm), it will double the VE of the engine, 30psi=triple

So, a turbo 1.0L w/ 15psi that was originally 100%VE, will be 200%, and use 2.0L of air/fuel
30psi originally 100%VE will be 300%, and use 3.0L air/fuel


You can also do some neat things with valve timing to increase VE. If you calculate it properly, you can leave the intake valve open for a little bit while the piston is already beginning to come back up and compress the air/fuel charge. If enough air is flowing towards the cylinder, it continue to forcefeed more charge into the cylinder until the cylinder has more pressure than the air in the intake channels.

At higher rpms it has more of an effect than at lower rpms, due the larger vacuum created during the intake stroke. this can have a dramatic effect, IIRC my s2000 has something around a VE of 122% stock, w/o a ram air intake. That's pretty much unheard of for N/A motors. I'd love to see the engines data for running both of these. I assume our bikes do. I'm a little too lazy to look right now though.


I realize I just highjacked this thread. But I was thinking about this stuff a little before I saw it. "There's no such thing as a free lunch", and a turbo isn't totally efficient. But its much more efficient than a lot of superchargers. So I was wondering how efficient ram-airs are. They basically take advantage of being open to the air. Basically, they increase your power, but they do that by having a crappier aerodynamic profile, which is very important on bikes. Kawi claimed that the 05 zx6rs new fairings made it require 10hp less to sustain 150mph than the 04 zx6r. So yeah, 10hp is one gained at speed is one thing, but how much hp of that goes to overcoming the additional air resistance.


I think some of your VE facts are a tad off at your statements that would make are zx6r motors 200%VE as most of them were rated 120hp or more at the crank and they are .6L or 600cc I am to tired to do the research but I think your a tad off!
 

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Discussion Starter #18
yeah i agree if its boosted it should drink e-85.n/a i seen gains not much but a gain.its a pain in the ass cuz you spend alot of $ and tuning to make hp. my guess on e-85.
Pros- hp gain (tuned right),lower comb temps, smells good, higher octane rating,detonation shouldnt happen,more timing, you could get it at a bar :lol: jk, clean burning fuel= good emmsions, cheaper than pump gas,it could be cool at a meet or shows? clean the top end of engine

cons-mpgs go down,hard starting,limited areas have it, the corrsion thing :O i think newer vehicles can run it no problem not sure but if it has a carb it wont work unless you have a e-85 carb and lines etc i no thats true.tuing wise (9.7 or what ever number) if the injectors are i think 85% to 100% on the duty cycle thats not good idk remember thou, the "winter"/"summer" blend, the fuel clogs i have heard of
i think thats it. down quote me on anything thou.maybe sometime ill to find out.
 

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Who cares about MPG pffftt... if I wanted that I would get an electric bike.

I'll be running CR12 fuel with mine ETA is maybe i'm assuming 18 MPG... which i'm fine with. I'll be happy either way.

But yes E85 has benefits with mostly i'd say cars... Most drag racers use alcohol and or 110-CR12 fuel. With boost or nitrous.

I'd say let the cars corrode there lines out quicker I like to not have to pay for OEM lines...
 

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Yeah it does start eating away at things but if you plan on building something be prepared to replace things e85 could get washed out with 91 and than I would just watch gaskets piston rings etc.
 
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