Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R Forum banner

121 - 140 of 144 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #121
Soooo, the problem is "marginally" better. But basically the same symptoms continue. I'm at a loss - it's only second gear and if it were truly popping out and back in, the shift fork would HAVE to be bent - but the old ones are not. I know it has to be something with the output shaft gears since the gears on the input shaft do not mesh dogs in second gear, but I cant imagine what the issue could be. I know it has to be the transmission because the one I swapped in a while back (before it lost a tooth) did not exhibit this problem whatsoever. Everything was quadruple checked with the manual before installing, so I'm confident it was not a fault of mine. Could it be that the dogs were worn short and are making a very poor connection in second, or could this be an output shaft tolerance/position issue?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,845 Posts
I'd think that Lloyd has already stated that the shimming of the gear stack is a critical element to aligning the gear sets..... I'm sure he'll see this and comment. I was concerned that the engine case might have too much wear at the support/bearing end.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #123
I'd think that Lloyd has already stated that the shimming of the gear stack is a critical element to aligning the gear sets..... I'm sure he'll see this and comment. I was concerned that the engine case might have too much wear at the support/bearing end.
But that's the thing, I measured everything I could that had tangible values in the manual and everything seemed fine. the few concerns I had from shaft end tolerances seemed to work out fine. Not sure if I kept the shafts from that other transmission, I purged a lot of old stuff when we moved but maybe if I take it apart again some time I can investigate further.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #124
It's getting to the point where now that if I have to take it apart again, I'm likely going to turn this into a long-term tear down and get intimate with some transmission experts. Rivers did mention shimming the stack so maybe there's a chance of getting this sorted out with time. The weird thing to me is the last time I pulled this transmission, there was no wear on the output shaft engagement dogs - how is that possible if they continue to bump in and out of position? Secondly, if anyone can recommend a tool that can take the bearings off without damaging them, I really don't want to have to buy another new set (so I can save for plastics finally).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #125 (Edited)
Engine apart again, i have another trans that I'm using as quality control for alignment purposes. In both cases, the fork for secind gear moves the same amount. In the two rides I've had since changing the forks and drum, I now have some good gouging on the "u" portion of the fork (not on the ears though). Any ideas anyone?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #126
I decided to utilize the gears, washers and such from the ebay bought trans (good condition) with my bike's output shaft. Reason behind using my bike's shaft is due to having a brand new bearing installed on it. When looking at the two shafts, they were identical in length but yet my gears wear pushed to the side by a few mm. I'm hoping that swapping these other gears and washers will alleviate the problem, seeing as I have yet to find any information regarding stack height of the oem trans.

On an unrelated note, I have what I believe to be an 03/04 shock or aftermarket shock of some kind that looks like it will fit, is nearly identical in length and looks good besides the possibility of having to cut up my battery box a bit. I'm going to look into servicing it mostly myself after some test fitment. I'm pretty sure my shock is completely shot and I don't really want to keep the stock external nitrogen canister.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,434 Posts
So if you look at the pictures............

Blow up view on page 8-3, can you follow along with the order of assembly?

Page 8-5.............. pull out a micrometer and actually m4easure those values with yours!

and when you say you have shift forks with marks worn in them down in the valley- that means the teeth of the gear is actually hitting it............look at it when fully assembled and you can see that is the only way (usually means the groove in the gear is worn excessively wide so the shift fork can twist, but........ can mean the clearance between the fork and the shift rod is large or the rod is bent or the drum groove has an issue/or the tooth on the back of the shift fork that goes in the drum groove)

if you look at page 8-18

you will notice the breakdown of the shims.......... they simply list a "thin" and a "thick"... and #7 and 11 toothed washers wear too- and sometimes/often you can buy thick and thin ones..........
SO when assembling you need to pay close attention to how you set this up, often you may well use all thick ones to get the clearances you want/need for best operation........... pull out your feeler gauges and measure how much side play each has when fully assembled........... ideally, you would get down somewhere in the .001"-.0015" maximum range, but I have set up some transmissions down to .0005" between the gear and washers and they work flawlessly (you will know by feel on the bench when it is perfect, even a first time assembler with any mechanical abilities worth the cost of the tools they own will be able to feel what is good and what is not good
even the c-clips wear.......... so new ones will take up some clearance
even the wear on the bushings that some of the gears ride on effects function
and the gears that slide directly on the shafts........ pay special attention to their clearnace and how easily they slide, so that they do not rock or tilt etc

as far as a "total stack height" there is no magic number and there is no standard........... you need to fiddle fuck with it and the shims and the clips- you only care how each gap between the clips works out.....total stack is what it is and is of zero consequence to anything, it can't change by more than a couple thou based on your last shims installed (sans the very last washer that goes on- those are fixed dimension from kaw to keep the whole works from walking, don't get them backwards...)
The final spacer washer on the ends of each shaft are different! I think id and od are the same but one is like 1.5mm thick and the other is like 2.3 or 2.5mm thick.........., some models do offer choices of thickensses to buy

ie................ looking at page 8-18
you would only care what feeler gauge you can get between say shim #11 and that gear......... make that be correct
then move to the next set

I mean sure.......... one can just throw any of the listed parts at it and pound it together and 99/100 it'll work....... but if you want it the best- shimming is the way!!!!!!!!!!


BUT............


But since you have shifting issues with ?popping out of second? you have something more wrong than what shimming is for.......... the precision shimming is for making it perfect after you already have it correct and functioning

So figure out what is incorrect.......... I know the book is relatively generic, I think they do that on purpose so only experienced people can do it that 100%, the book just gets you to the 85% good enough standard.....

look up the fische too, there you can see (often see) thicknesses for some of the shims, washers and clips- I often order multiples of all of them so I can shim properly and sometimes have to make my own to really make things work to the standard I am looking for............



 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #128 (Edited)
So if you look at the pictures............

Blow up view on page 8-3, can you follow along with the order of assembly?

Page 8-5.............. pull out a micrometer and actually m4easure those values with yours!

and when you say you have shift forks with marks worn in them down in the valley- that means the teeth of the gear is actually hitting it............look at it when fully assembled and you can see that is the only way (usually means the groove in the gear is worn excessively wide so the shift fork can twist, but........ can mean the clearance between the fork and the shift rod is large or the rod is bent or the drum groove has an issue/or the tooth on the back of the shift fork that goes in the drum groove)

if you look at page 8-18

you will notice the breakdown of the shims.......... they simply list a "thin" and a "thick"... and #7 and 11 toothed washers wear too- and sometimes/often you can buy thick and thin ones..........
SO when assembling you need to pay close attention to how you set this up, often you may well use all thick ones to get the clearances you want/need for best operation........... pull out your feeler gauges and measure how much side play each has when fully assembled........... ideally, you would get down somewhere in the .001"-.0015" maximum range, but I have set up some transmissions down to .0005" between the gear and washers and they work flawlessly (you will know by feel on the bench when it is perfect, even a first time assembler with any mechanical abilities worth the cost of the tools they own will be able to feel what is good and what is not good
even the c-clips wear.......... so new ones will take up some clearance
even the wear on the bushings that some of the gears ride on effects function
and the gears that slide directly on the shafts........ pay special attention to their clearnace and how easily they slide, so that they do not rock or tilt etc

as far as a "total stack height" there is no magic number and there is no standard........... you need to fiddle fuck with it and the shims and the clips- you only care how each gap between the clips works out.....total stack is what it is and is of zero consequence to anything, it can't change by more than a couple thou based on your last shims installed (sans the very last washer that goes on- those are fixed dimension from kaw to keep the whole works from walking, don't get them backwards...)
The final spacer washer on the ends of each shaft are different! I think id and od are the same but one is like 1.5mm thick and the other is like 2.3 or 2.5mm thick.........., some models do offer choices of thickensses to buy

ie................ looking at page 8-18
you would only care what feeler gauge you can get between say shim #11 and that gear......... make that be correct
then move to the next set

I mean sure.......... one can just throw any of the listed parts at it and pound it together and 99/100 it'll work....... but if you want it the best- shimming is the way!!!!!!!!!!


BUT............


But since you have shifting issues with ?popping out of second? you have something more wrong than what shimming is for.......... the precision shimming is for making it perfect after you already have it correct and functioning

So figure out what is incorrect.......... I know the book is relatively generic, I think they do that on purpose so only experienced people can do it that 100%, the book just gets you to the 85% good enough standard.....

look up the fische too, there you can see (often see) thicknesses for some of the shims, washers and clips- I often order multiples of all of them so I can shim properly and sometimes have to make my own to really make things work to the standard I am looking for............
Okay, so not going to lie, I literally just finished putting the crankcase back on. That being said, I did double/triple/quadruple check the diagram so I know it's put together correctly. I did measure tolerances and everything I put back together was within the left and right limits. Additionally, I triple checked the fork that was worn and as you said it was clearly by the gear teeth - I saw no noticable rubbing while in neutral nor any difference while engaged. I know the tolerances are right on with the forks and drum, so I'm still dumbfounded at what my issue could be. The fork ears look fine and the fork is not bent - neither are my other two sets of shift forks so that cant be the issue. I will update as soon as I know if it works or not, but if I have to take this mf apart again, I'll go your route with the feeler gauge between washers/gears. Lucky I took this apart again because I found that my sprocket nut must have flung off somehow (maybe I forgot to torque it down?). Really wish I had a little more professional experience because I hate buttoning up an engine to find out there are more ways to check my work. Thank you for the info though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #129
Looks like my valve clearances will be finished soon, just waiting on my gaskets to arrive so I can button the engine back-up and start diagnosing my no-charge problem. Not sure what happened there since the last time it was running, all of a sudden she has zero ability to run off the stator so I have to diagnose.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #130
Top end complete - waiting on a new stator to come in and connectors (had more charging problems and just replaced/rewired my rectifier with no change). The output voltage from the burnt up leads was half the manual minimum so I found a good one from a lower milage bike that I will test, insulate and install with brand new connectors. That way everything electrically speaking will be running normally.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #131
I'll keep the old one and may take on a "do it yourself" project with it to have a good backup.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #132 (Edited)
New stator in, new regulator/rectifier for good measure, new connectors installed, found a completely burnt ground cable that was causing my gauge cluster and headlight to stay on (cleaned, rewired, and sealed), new starter solenoid since I had an extra, etc. below is a cool thing I did with my carbs.

So I had done the kleen air mod (smog blockoff plates) in the past, but kept the vacuum valve attached (not from the smog system, the valve attached to the carb) since I was unsure how that worked. I went for a test ride the other day and she was NOT liking somthing; she was bucking and not seeming to get fuel just right. Turns out, the valve is unnecessary if you have the kleen air mod so I did what is called the "float bowl mod" and directly linked the float bowl vent lines to the airbox. Basically, I eliminated a point of failure with bypassing the vacuum valve (which it turns out was bad anyway) and now she screams down the road like a bat out of hell. That, coupled with a fresh valve adjustment and cleaned up wiring equals mucho power. I'm very happy.

I may look into rejetting the carb soon since the doofus before me dicided that 175/190 main jets were cool, but otherwise she is running BEAUTIFULLY. If she keeps on ticking well, my wife says I can get new plastics :))
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #133
So I guess little road bumps are normal with how much I have re-wired this bike. My headlight will not turn on now (I have two good replacement bulbs) and it's not my spliced connections that are causing the issue. I have a feeling my headlight relay in the fuze box may have gone bad but I wont be able to dig further till the weekend. In the mean time, anyone have ideas on how to test the relay? I have not taken the time to scour the manual yet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #134
Update. Bought a European zx600f harness in decent condition and completely gutted mine. Used brand new plugs and/or used my harness's plugs to fortify the donor harness, used shrink tubes and then re-wrapped the entire harness. A few cool European model harness features are the city lights plug built in and the secondary dimmer switch that activates the headlight/tail light.

Headlight comes on and stays on, voltages are within limits, all electrical components are working properly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #136
Any idea how old the Euro harness is?
I'm just going to say I have no clue. Bikebandit and other websites who claimed to have an OEM harness all came back saying no. Being that I can't take it to a shop to get looked at, I found the replacement harness on ebay.

That being said, the bike this harness came from was either very well taken care of, or had been given a new harness some time ago. Besides a few minor fixes (wired in the factory fuel pump switch), this harness is in amazing shape compared to mine. Not a single sign of overheating at the regulator, no corrosion or burning at the stator connector, and ALL factory plugs were present and in good condition (besides the one fuel pump plug). I took all the wrapping off and checked each individual wire as I moved down through the harness. All factory splices were good, no brittleness and no exposed wire.

All that to say, idk how old it is - could be factory, could be a newer replacement... hard to tell.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,434 Posts
Any idea how old the Euro harness is?
Surely it was manufactured from ma kaw back when the f models were being made, I doubt they ever made another batch later. So good odds the harness is more than 20 years old, but it seems to have been minimally used and stored okay considering he says it is so good......

I mean hell I have motorcycles come in, that some of them are 30+ years old and more still with 150k or more on them and still have original harnesses with zero issues, so I am not surprised he got a good used one
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,434 Posts
Finished putting the cowling back on and replaced the rivet nuts for the fuel tank bolts. All is looking well.
You did not buy the proper tool for the rivnuts to install them?

Is that a bunch of epoxy or what all over the top of the frame around them?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,574 Posts
Discussion Starter #140
You did not buy the proper tool for the rivnuts to install them?

Is that a bunch of epoxy or what all over the top of the frame around them?
I used the nut/washer method to crimp/compress the rivet nuts to the frame which worked fine; I have layers of paint that probably look like wavy epoxy since I always seem to scuff and mess of the paint with my tank or tools. That will get cleaned up whenever I find the time to care how it looks.

I see what you mean - it looks like a hot mess but no I did not put them in and epoxy them to the frame.
 
121 - 140 of 144 Posts
Top