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Tires should be a revenue source, and once were............ and while they still are the most profitable thing I can do ( ie, I likely make the most per hour doing them, all in.... compared to any of the other fixed pricing things- maybe fork seals is actually number 1 and tires #2....) .... I haven't felt like lately (selling ~100 tires annually the last couple years) they have not been much of a revenue stream considering the investment in inventory and the ROI to sell those tires.....

I think at current margins, it really has to be 200 annually minimum to be worth it......... but I also think the margins need to be higher no matter how many I do.......
Lloyd, if you feel like you sacrifice something to accomplish a task, you’re undervaluing yourself.

Im in a similar boat, if people don’t like it then they are welcome to find another way.
 

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riverszzr,

I deal with this sort of stuff every day. Holding one tolerance specififation to the tightest possible center of the allowance only makes sense if everything else is dead center..... that's where the term 'double nuts' comes from -- held to .00 of whatever the spec is.

In electronics, it's easy to get the timing of things ridiculously accurate. GPS works because the atomic clocks in all of the satellites are accurate to such a fine point that they have to be compensated for due to the difference in time as a result of the gravity gradient between the surface of the planet and the 100+ miles up that they operate at.

It all comes down to what is 'good enough', for a given situation. It's easy to fall in love with the number of digits past the decimal point, but it's usually an excercise in bragging rights.

How accurate does a wrist watch need to be? Wouldn't within a 10th of a second suffice on a daily basis? How about a timing device at a track? Is 1/100th of a second good?

Instrumentation error from one measuring system to the next is really the maximum accuracy any measurement can claim. That always results in tossing out the least significant digit in a measurement.

I'm sure you are extremely precise in your measurements; and can repeat the same measurement to the same value with great consistency. I'd be very surprised if you couldn't use feeler gauges and torque wrenches to attain a more consistent value every time you made a measurement with the same instrument - practice and experience are in play.

A theoretical excercise:

I'd think that if you personally took a motor and set the valave lash 'double nuts' to the ideal, ran it on a dyno, and then set the same motor up with the valve lashes randomly set all accross the mfg's allowed spec (narrow and wide) and re-ran it on the same dyno in exactly the same conditions.... you could see an extremely small difference in HP.

Your thoughts?
I’m actually playing with this now. We just had the 23 done at 123. Idk why but the other night I got to thinking about valves and things I could do to squeeze a couple more out of it. The bike only has a couple hundred miles so I figured I was wasting my time but it was snowing so I tore into the bike. The valves were so all over the place. I guess they could technically be “in spec” to sell new. but not in my world. I got them all dead on and we will dyno as soon as the temp rises to about the same as it was the last time we did. My feeling is it has to gain something. There is a couple more things I was to do but I’m really curious of what the valves will result so for this run that’s all I’m planning to do. Once we get it on the dyno I will post the results on my dyno topic. But thanks for addressing this. I think a lot of people just assume if it’s “good enough” then it’s good enough. And idk.
 

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Engineering is full of ‘good enough’. Things can always be taken further for a cost, so someone somewhere has to set the limit for a given parameter.

That’s what blueprint and balance used to be all about.

The classic case study of this was when Ford investigated why Mazda was building the exact same transmission as ‘mother Ford’ but the durability was far better. Much higher MTBF. Many experts looked into it soup to nuts. Everything from design specs, materials, assembly procedures.

The only difference they could find was the Japanese transmission was held to the dead center of the spec on every single part in the transmission.

Factory racing teams cherry pick all of the mass produced parts to get the very best center spec parts. Less stacking slop means a freer running system which results in more net HP.
 

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Discussion Starter · #1,244 · (Edited)
Lloyd, if you feel like you sacrifice something to accomplish a task, you’re undervaluing yourself.

Im in a similar boat, if people don’t like it then they are welcome to find another way.
Where the issue may lie, to me.......... and my hesitance to raise some of the prices further........

When is being prices higher, too high for customers to accept and they just bolt.........


I think the major service tune may have reached that threshold with the last increase across the board on those........ of course if people do not see the value in everything done on that service despite its "double the cost" of a normal tune up...........

then again, maybe my "normal tune up" is just too fucking good for the money and it is underpriced

perhaps raising the price of the regular tune up again would actually bring some more value back to the major tune up service in some peoples eyes???


Lots of time pricing is a ME issue, I feel like prices are too high and I cut them or refuse to raise them even though I want to raise them to make it more in line with what my value is.........

here is the current pricing page..........

 

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Discussion Starter · #1,245 ·
I’m actually playing with this now. We just had the 23 done at 123. Idk why but the other night I got to thinking about valves and things I could do to squeeze a couple more out of it. The bike only has a couple hundred miles so I figured I was wasting my time but it was snowing so I tore into the bike. The valves were so all over the place. I guess they could technically be “in spec” to sell new. but not in my world. I got them all dead on and we will dyno as soon as the temp rises to about the same as it was the last time we did. My feeling is it has to gain something. There is a couple more things I was to do but I’m really curious of what the valves will result so for this run that’s all I’m planning to do. Once we get it on the dyno I will post the results on my dyno topic. But thanks for addressing this. I think a lot of people just assume if it’s “good enough” then it’s good enough. And idk.
So if you adjusted all the valves to a specific value now---center of spec or whatever....... as long as all intakes are actually at one value and all exhausts are actually at one value---the engine should love you for this and run smoother and more evenly.....

But With this you absolutely needed to synchronize the throttle bodies to be as close as you humanly could have gotten them too, odds are you could be off by a mb or more even at only a few hundred miles on the bike, and this may well negate some of your efforts in the precision valve adjustment...........as far as smoothness of operation and measurable output on the dyno.....

But I do congratulate your efforts on being pro active and adjusting them this early and your findings are inline with what I find all the time, even on some bikes with only the 20-25 mile break in run done...........
 

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Lloyd, you may benefit from setting a two tier price list. If you set up a ‘racing’ price list, in addition to the ‘basic’ within spec pricing you could separate the wheat from the chaff wrt the customer base.

All the knob ends that want to cheap out- one pass on settings. Minimal cleaning. Set, specific time limits and workmanship requirements.

Put your mastery on the projects that want that quality. The people who recognize that will pay you for what they already know they are getting.
 

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Lloyd, you may benefit from setting a two tier price list. If you set up a ‘racing’ price list, in addition to the ‘basic’ within spec pricing you could separate the wheat from the chaff wrt the customer base.

All the knob ends that want to cheap out- one pass on settings. Minimal cleaning. Set, specific time limits and workmanship requirements.

Put your mastery on the projects that want that quality. The people who recognize that will pay you for what they already know they are getting.
We actually looked into doing this two price list idea at my shop. The problem as we seen it was how people projected that. Everyone rather they care or not when seeing the option of “normal and professional”. Wants the professional option. It’s just human nature. The problem is people don’t want to pay for the extra labor that consumes

so we have gotten pretty good at reading specific customers and just explaining face to face. That’s seemed to work out the best

And thanks for the input Lloyd. I will recheck my tps settings tonight . That’s something that never crossed my mind. But I have gotten into the habit of recommending valves to certain customers at the first service. I don’t think I have ever pulled a bike apart regardless of how many miles and not needed an adjustment. Well again “needed” may not be the correct term but you get what I’m saying. Especially 4 stroke Honda off road bikes. There the worse right out of the crate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #1,248 ·
Lloyd, you may benefit from setting a two tier price list. If you set up a ‘racing’ price list, in addition to the ‘basic’ within spec pricing you could separate the wheat from the chaff wrt the customer base.

All the knob ends that want to cheap out- one pass on settings. Minimal cleaning. Set, specific time limits and workmanship requirements.

Put your mastery on the projects that want that quality. The people who recognize that will pay you for what they already know they are getting.
Well considering I already have....

Minor service tune................. geared towards those who already change their own oil etc (saves the customer about $50 in labor and the cost of some oil/filter etc)-- a zx6r would be $445

oe recommended tune......... geared towards exactly what the maintnenance schedule says at the valve adjustment interval, regardless if it is 7500 miles, 14,400 miles or 16,000 etc........ (it still does more)-- a zx6r would be $495

and a major service tune........ which is for all practical purposes- inclusive of everything on the entire bike that has lube, can wear out, or can be adjusted............ at one point during this service the bike is basically a frame, engine and wiring harness and nothing else......... a zx6r would be $995

I am not sure adding more levels to this would be productive

I am leaning more towards simply adding another $55 to the middle service "oe recommended tune" get it to the $550 mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #1,249 ·
We actually looked into doing this two price list idea at my shop. The problem as we seen it was how people projected that. Everyone rather they care or not when seeing the option of “normal and professional”. Wants the professional option. It’s just human nature. The problem is people don’t want to pay for the extra labor that consumes

so we have gotten pretty good at reading specific customers and just explaining face to face. That’s seemed to work out the best

And thanks for the input Lloyd. I will recheck my tps settings tonight . That’s something that never crossed my mind. But I have gotten into the habit of recommending valves to certain customers at the first service. I don’t think I have ever pulled a bike apart regardless of how many miles and not needed an adjustment. Well again “needed” may not be the correct term but you get what I’m saying. Especially 4 stroke Honda off road bikes. There the worse right out of the crate.
Throttle body synchronization............. while TPS is important, throttle body sync is more importanter......... lol
 
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Discussion Starter · #1,250 ·
Since I was told I may not get the drum (for quite some time) of my preferred Maxima Pro plus, oil......

300 liters of oil just showed up in liters........... 25 cases, that was fun to carry in..........uggg
ups driver was not amused and sadly I had just taken my dolly home last night for use there
UPS dropped them by my overhead door..... thnakfully I only really had to carry them about 35' to the stacking spot, for now............ (enough for about 80 oil changes)

and the first 3 tires of my spring order arrived with it........ A couple rear of those Avon Storm 3-D XM.... they arrived very dusty with production dates of 44th week of 2021......so my guess the distributor did not do well with these and was blowing them out seems leven more likely........

gee..... only 8 more cases of engine oil and fork oil to go, plus 50something more tires, and a case of rbf600, another case of motul chain lube and then plugs, batteries, brake pads and some other miscellaneous shit..........

going to be a super fun next week with various arrivals everyday likely............

net 10 (save an additional 2%), so Feb 10th is going to be a super fun payment day............ugggg

then to get to checking everything in and sorting and shelving it all.......... tire rack has room for I think 48 more tires, so with 50something arriving....uggg--- I guess a couple will be displayed on the customer entry area maybe that'll be good enough
 

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Discussion Starter · #1,251 · (Edited)
What does anyone think of the idea of ONLY selling the GPR300's as a SET..........

110/70-17 & 140/70-17 @ $155
120/70-17 & 180/55-17 or 160/60-17 @ $170
120/70-17 & 190/50-17 @ $175

with them being so damn cheap, and not much margin....... I would really rather make sure it is worth my time and the labor price of doing both

otherwise they are only like....$76-72 on fronts (each) and $94-98 on rears (each)

yes this would be me.... raising the pricing a couple dollars and forcing set buys on them

but compare..........

the "cheaps" could be into a new set installed for much less than anything else on hand.....

GPR300............ $280 all in out the door....otherwise someone only wanting a rear is about- (158ish OTD) so yep an additional ~122 for another tire and so I can make some money for my time(since the time to write up and deal with both ends of the deal and to do the actual work is less than 20 minutes difference really)--I get it, some people are cheap and don't want to spend that extra 122 for another 1-2000 miles they may squeek out of that front......

S21................... $342 all in out the door (only have 1 set of these remaining and wont get more)
RSIII................. $345 all in out the door (these too are a closeout deal, 3 sets remain)
Avon Storms.... $399 all in out the door
RSIV................ $442 all in out the door
M9RR.............. $457 all in out the door
Roadtec 01...... $490 all in out the door
Q5S................. $515 all in out the door
Q5................... $535 all in out the door
 
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Discussion Starter · #1,252 · (Edited)
When you order 20, (qty 4 per actual box, so there should have been 5 boxes with 4 inside each box with each box individually boxed inside those boxes) and yet the distributor still throws 7 loose plugs in the bottom of a box that also has another -heavy-box inside that contains 20 tie downs (apparently the other 13 are coming from some other warehouse......... we'll see how that goes if/when those arrive)

and the plugs end up squished, out of their individual boxes and only 2 arrive........... (5 missing according to the shipping invoice)

and who the fuck thinks brown paper is packing materials?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

uggg

fucking worthless help in their shipping department no doubt!!
 

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Our personal experience with shipping to the house for online orders has shown a steady decline in quality over the period since COVID was declared.

We see a lot more damaged containers that are obviously damaged before they were packed, on top of a truly atrocious variation on what constitutes packing for shipment. Seems like a LOT more factory seconds are being passed off as first quality. I can't challenge it, as I didn't get to select what specific item is placed in my 'cart' I have to hope that when someone says it's in stock they mean it's never been sold to anyone else and is in first rate condition. We buy canned pet food in flat pack cases of 24 frequently. When the center cans have dents on their sides? No indication the case of food flexed no exterior cans in worse shape.... cans with dents that would not have been sold before, are being passed off as just as good as undented cans. When our animals become super picky about eating the same foods they have been eating it's obvious to me that the quality of the product in the can is also more suspect than it was.

There's almost no rhyme or reason to shipping damage or delays. No shipping service has significantly better performance than any other which makes it especially difficult to punish the incompetent by denying them my business. On top of that, I have zero ability to influence which service carries my order; and there are many instances where the initial shipping company delegates a shipment to another service. Something may start out stated as FedEx, and end up getting delivered by USPS. We're seeing more and more online schedule predictions that are completely wrong as well. 2 day delivery means very little >80% of the time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #1,254 ·
Speaking of shipping fails..............

So I get a call from someone at fed ex last night (caller ID states fed ex, and he identifies himself as fed ex), he tells me the driver cannot find my location but is there trying to deliver.

I explain...ask....tell...;
So he is in the top parking lot right now, so tell him to simply drive around the building to the lower parking lot and look for the door on the east end of the building with a great big "B" on it, I am in suite B


long pause...
he replies with, So are you there for delivery,...................... YES
another long pause

oh, he says and continues with.......... Well he already left he will have to deliver tomorrow....

WTF !! So in a 2 minute phone call he already drove away, I call bullshit, especially at 8pm at night!!!!!!

anyways, so I ask him........ You do realize tomorrow is Saturday, but I will be working and the door is unlocked so by all means have hi come back tomorrow, I will be there by 9am and still be there until atleast 4 or 5

he then says, No no no....He will come on Monday, so what is your address again???

WOW and WTF...........

So I tell him the address and suite "number" etc and he is like okay, He will be there tomorrow...

me....... tomorrow as in Saturday or tomorrow as in Monday??????? I mean come on buddy get your shit together

click..........

fucking dumbs, world is full of way too many fucking dumbs!!!!!!
 
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Discussion Starter · #1,255 · (Edited)
fyi............ side sheer strength of 3- #9 3" deck screws through two adjoining 2x4's is less than the weight of 24 cases of oil........ (what is that, maybe 550-600lbs........ I guess I was not really expecting 600 pounds on any connection when I put it together, but I did have jack studs under most of the joints- for when I really overloaded it all)

jack studs under 17 of the 20 mating surfaces....... and of course.......... one of those 3 without has 24 cases of oil sitting virtually right on top of it.......... 2 wide, 3 deep x 4 high

atleast the deflection of the shelf was not enough for any to fall the 8' to the floor

jack studs installed in those final 3...........and all is good in the world once again...........
 
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Speaking of shipping fails..............

So I get a call from someone at fed ex last night (caller ID states fed ex, and he identifies himself as fed ex), he tells me the driver cannot find my location but is there trying to deliver.

I explain...ask....tell...;
So he is in the top parking lot right now, so tell him to simply drive around the building to the lower parking lot and look for the door on the east end of the building with a great big "B" on it, I am in suite B


long pause...
he replies with, So are you there for delivery,...................... YES
another long pause

oh, he says and continues with.......... Well he already left he will have to deliver tomorrow....

WTF !! So in a 2 minute phone call he already drove away, I call bullshit, especially at 8pm at night!!!!!!

anyways, so I ask him........ You do realize tomorrow is Saturday, but I will be working and the door is unlocked so by all means have hi come back tomorrow, I will be there by 9am and still be there until atleast 4 or 5

he then says, No no no....He will come on Monday, so what is your address again???

WOW and WTF...........

So I tell him the address and suite "number" etc and he is like okay, He will be there tomorrow...

me....... tomorrow as in Saturday or tomorrow as in Monday??????? I mean come on buddy get your shit together

click..........

fucking dumbs, world is full of way too many fucking dumbs!!!!!!
This one makes me think that you should call it into corporate. Somebody's cooking the books.
 

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Discussion Starter · #1,257 ·
This one makes me think that you should call it into corporate. Somebody's cooking the books.
We'll see if and when they arrive today........

I did find it very odd that the call was so late into the eveing and he acted like the driver was in the lot at the time of the call...

No idea if the driver today would be the same driver as Friday but I will ask the driver if he was here friday and at what time.....
 
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Discussion Starter · #1,258 ·
I know you guys love my deep data dives............


So sportbike category tires.... 14 different sizes sold

data shows I have only sold ---from either in stock or special ordered tires-- this does not count tires carried in by customers or shipped to me on their behalf to install..................... (spanning the past 7 seasons);

110/70-17.............. 12
120/60-17.............. 18
120/70-17............. 336................ sell through of about 48 per year
130/70-16............. 1
110/80-17............. 1 (fzr600 tire?)

fronts sell through rate is............................. only about 53 tires annually

140/70-17.................27
150/60-17..................1.... 5 years ago the only one ever sold was sold
160/60-17.................. 12 (none sold the last 2 years)
180/55-17.................. 279.................. sell through of about 40 per year
180/60-17.................. 24.................... really sold the bulk of these in 2019 @ 21, most other years it is 0 per year
190/50-17.................. 12
190/55-17.................. 60.................. sell through of only 8.5 per year (most any year was 11)
200/55-17................. 6

140/70-18.................. 3 (fzr600 tire?)
Rear sell through rate is ....................................only about 61 tires anually

As data confirms and justifies.......

I always stock 120/70-17 & 180/55-17 & 190/55-17 in pretty much just 2 different brands, as a result certainly the bulk of the sales above were Dunlop Q3/Q3+/ Q4 and M7/M9RR................ with only the S21 exceeding 5 total of other brands and models

I am not even sure I should continue stocking any, or atleast a much lessor Qty;
160/60's...or atleast no more than 1 of them any more.............. yet I have 3 on hand
110/70........look like very low volume seller as well and hardly worth keeping more than 1 or 2 of either on hand but it is the counterpart to the
140/70-17....which looks to have a sell through of about 4 per year.............yet I currently have atleast 7 sets of these small bike tires on hand... M9RR, S21, GPR300 and Q5S----way too much inventory for this low of seller!!!--sadly there was a time I had none and could not find any and then I ordered and backordered, then a year later they all arrived, so now I have way too fucking many
same goes for the 190/50 & 200/55 which are too low of volume sellers to bother keeping on hand...yet I have 3 of the 200's and have never stocked 190/50's
..........................................................................................................................................................

Sport touring categorized tire sizes were limited to only 9 different sizes;

and again some losers in the mix....

120/60-17.............9
120/70-17.............150
120/70-18.............. 27 (but none sold in 2022, only 1 in 2021 and 3 in 2020.time to drop them from stock)
160/60-17.............. 27 (none sold in 2022 and only 1 in each of 2020 and 2021)
170/60-17.............. 30 (but not even 1 sold in 2022 and only 1 sold in 2020 and same in 2021.... time to drop these!)
180/55-17............... 87
190/50-17.............. 6
190/55-17............... 75
160/60-18............... 2

these I exclusively only keep qty on hand in the 3 most popular sizes of;
120/70-17 & 180/55-17 & 190/55-17
but I do have some (usually 1 or 2).....where I should not bother imo.....
120/70-18
170/60-17
160/60-17
120/60-17



Touring category, 29 different sizes sold in the past 7 years but certainly the bulk of those sales.......

180/60R16........................80.......... --only 1 sold in 2022-- always on hand in qty (current 13)
130/70R18........................90.......... always on hand in qty (current 13)
130/90B16 front (HD).......33.......... 9 sold last year, special ordered every single one of them, WWW, NRW, blackwall covering 4 models, either......... Metzeler cruisetec or ME888 and D401/D402....now I have these on hand

next closest sizes with not even close to as many sold
150/90 and 150/80-15R...............18-21..........always atleast 1 on hand
150/90-15F................................... 18.....................................have never stocked
170/80B15 R................................ 18...............always atleast 1 on hand
MT90B16f/r ................................. 15 each............................ have never stocked

Basically.....

data shows I sell what I stock, and the obvious;
of 120/70-17 & 180/55-17 & 190/55-17 being the prime sellers in sport and sport touring type tires

it also shows I should stock far less of some sizes and even go to none of several sizes

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I did the same evaluation once again of fork oil, spark plugs, batteries, brake pads etc......

nearly all of the fork oil I sell and install.....

maxima Blue label 7w (followed in a not too far distance by Maxima blue label 5w)
With Maxima 15w green label splitting them in the middle (for all those non cartridge forks and shitty cartridge forks) (43 of the 48 liters last year was one of these three)

10W, 20W and 30W sell but at such low rates I would not go through a case of 12 in even 3 full seasons...but I keep it around anyways
 
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This is interesting to me, Lloyd. I know there has to be a better term than ‘fire sale’ for that oddball stuff which is going to become age expiration sensitive…. You have figured out what you want to trim out of inventory; the only thing remaining is how to move it on without losing your investment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #1,260 ·
This is interesting to me, Lloyd. I know there has to be a better term than ‘fire sale’ for that oddball stuff which is going to become age expiration sensitive…. You have figured out what you want to trim out of inventory; the only thing remaining is how to move it on without losing your investment.
Well I have several (more than 25) tires listed up on my website currently for sale at significantly less than I paid for them......

tires like the Roadsmart III which was replaced 2 years ago with the Roadsmart IV..I marked them down to taking about a $40-50 loss on everyone of them to "dump them" and if that doesn't move them, the price will have to get lower still..

currently if I mount and balance those at these prices.....I will have covered the cost to buy and made zero on the time and investment of capitol. not really "break even" but, break even enough

Then there are a couple Dunlop Elite 3's, Bridgestone T30 and T31's........... all losing more than $60 and up to $80 per tire from what I paid to "dump them"....... there is no recovery from that, but it is better than the next scenario....

and yes........... I hate when I have to throw away (recycler) tires that have aged out, and over the past several years that number has been from 1or2 a year to as many as 9...no coming back from throwing away investment- may as well just thrown cash out the window driving down the freeway......... would have actually cost me less to throw the cash away


with all of those 110/70-17 & 140/70-17's having 2022 production dates it is unlikely I will need to fire sale them anytime soon, but I am going to price them aggressively to thin the level of them on hand.......if prices really even matter and if people even find those prices.....
 
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