[RJ2112]

I'm curious how precisely close each injector squirts fuel in relation to the other injectors? I know there are certain tests you can do on injectors but I've still wondered do they all squirt exactly the same throughout the RPM range. Similarly is the volume of air that is injested exactly the same based on the shape of the air box, spark, etc. I do understand what rivers is getting at though. Why not be as precise as you can with the tools you have on the things you can control? I wish I had a set of feeler gauges with more granularity but I haven't been able to come up with a set so I can only get "close" with the set I have, and that's only if I am using them correctly. Measuring tolerances definitely takes some accurate measuring tools, knowledge, experience, practice, and repeatability. A buddy of mine was talking about how you can change valve timing based on the difference in how you adjust within the tolerances between the intake and the exhaust valves. Setting the intake valves to the tight side of center and the exhaust valves to the loose side of center for example and how that can effect duration and performance and why.

It all comes down to how finely do you want to split the hair -- there is always more that can be done; it comes down to how much return is there on the investment. I too, get what riverszzr is saying... the answer for me is that the manufacturer has a lot more time and effort sunk into deciding that than I ever will.

Injector timing? Does the manufacturer account for the length of the wires being different between injectors from the ECU? The signals may arrive at the injector at different delays as a result -- this is something that is a concern in circuit board design.

Signals propagate through copper at about 1 picosecond (1x10^-12) an inch. That sort of accuracy probably isn't required, when the rate the injectors open and close may vary by a far greater amount. How exactly does that matter? Without a LOT of research and actual measurement, it's a guess.

Getting the ECU programmed more accurately than the mfg did it, is probably the fastest way to more powrt and better performance. As the end use can ignore all of the environmental BS imposed on them, the charges can be richer, timing more precise, etc. etc.

Indexing cams so they have the best possible overlap, duration, and timing are all desireable things -- I'd expect a few percent change in HP at the rear wheel are possible.

Air flow and resonances in the airbox, intake, exhaust.... the two ways to sort that out are directly related. Trial and error got us from side valve, to overhead valve, to overhead cam, to shim under bucket valve control. Somewhere in the middle of that, when the processing power got high enough, computational fluid dynamics has come into it; those computer models are by this point probably pretty good at estimating how much power a given configuration may produce.

The model will still not exactly match what happens on the dyno -- and that will still not match what happens in actual use. the differences are smaller than they have ever been. But they are still there.

There will always be room for improvement.....

 

[riverszzr]

RJ;
I have actually run numerous bikes on a before and after basis and seen results as much as 10% greater on some of the more neglected, but 3-5% is very common (on 110 hp that can easily be 5-7hp more afterwards)

trackday;

I send out injectors frequently for cleaning/balancing- they come back with a data sheet of before and after. It is very common for them to be 2-8% different in the flow/atomization. Unfortunately it doesn't equate to the same type of improvement in dyno readings, I had a set that seemed terrible and data supported that and when resinstalled- the difference in hp was negligeable, if memeory serves, no gains/losses until past 7k, it was 2 hp through the top of midrange (7-11k) but only 1hp right in the top 3000 rpms(granted it was a different day etc, so there is some variable there). But I can say, it was a noticeable improvement in how smoothly it idled, ran at speed and throttle response was better too- even though the dyno didn't really show a significant difference. CO readings couldn't be discerned as different, but HC was lower by several hundred PPM in most areas.

This is precisely why I emphasized- why not control all you can and be as perfect as possible with what you can control. It costs you nothing except some extra due diligence and a better work ethic.
Valve clearances and throttle body sync are super easy to get exacting numbers for no extra cost.

Cam timing since it was brought up is an area I see varying in huge amounts- often you will see lobe center specs in a service manual to be say... 105/108 and then I can take 10 of those bikes and measure them and not a single one will be there- some might be off by more than a couple degrees, some may have one cam real close the other not so much etc..... (I am not saying the factory spec'd cam timing number is necessary the ideal either, because depending on use and any changes it may well not be the best for you and your bike)
And yes how you set valve clearances will effect the numbers.
That is another area where I have sat down and just kept trying different setting of cam timing til I was blue in the face (no other changes) and seen gains and losses of as much as 5hp (on modern day 600cc bikes)

 

[riverszzr]

I see people all the time waste money on an slip on or on a power commander and then never do what it takes to benefit form those things.

Why if you are willing to spend thousand(s) on bolt on shit, are people not willing to get the free horsepower that often is more hp than the bolt on shit added?

Looming rhetorical question, everyone will have their own motives for doing what they do.

 

[RJ2112]

Thanks for the insight. As I said, the consistency with which you get 'under the hood' is exactly why I would be willing to part with my cash to have you tune my bike/car/soup de jour. The average weekend warrior is going to do more damage than good, just in all the other sh*t that can and will go wrong in the process of getting to that (in your case) 'easily' attainable 3-5% gain.

Please understand I am in no way being disrespectful of what you can obviously accomplish. If the time and money are there, given that every other process that has to be done to get to shimming the valves is done with equal care and precision, gains can be made.

Dyno time is easy when you own a dyno. Same as milling parts -- once you have the experience and the tools, the actual job is less of a problem. At some point it becomes cost prohibitive to chase that 3-5% HP gain, when it takes the time and money for all the other stuff to get to it.

I know that Kawasaki did a decent job, in stacking all those tolerances, and material choices, to get the bike I bought to where it is. The folks who thought out how long it will take before things go sideways know what they are doing, as well. (except for the SOB responsible for the charging system -- he cut it too tight, IMHO)

I have to balance the desire to modify against the impact that will have, on reliability. Performance always comes at a cost.

For me, the balance is best suited by changing as little as possible, so the reliability stays high. Were I to race, the equation would be different, I am sure. I'd weigh a lot less than I do, now. I'd be in better physical shape so my endurance would hold up.

I see very little value in ekeing out more HP from what is aruably aleady a highly tuned engine. (13:1 compression, with a 13K+ redline?) OEM, this thing is making the equivlent of 140 HP per liter..... that would be a 700 HP 300 cubic inch engine -- how long do those last?

The return for my dollars amounts to more tickets, and a potentially damaged engine. My 0-60 times are already quick enough, the bike handles better than I can make use of on the street (where I ride), and stops just about as well as I could ask for.

 

[trackdayhero]

I would probably be better off having RIvers work on my stuff but I just enjoy doing stuff myself, even if sometimes it doesn't come out perfect the first time. I enjoy figuring out where I went wrong and improve for the next time. But then, I have actually been a mechanic for a good part of my life so I already have most of the basics that get non-mechanics into trouble quickly. I enjoy working on my own stuff but I don't really have a desire to work on anyone elses stuff. I would be happy to let them use my tools and sit through something with them but ultimately I don't want to be responsible for fucking up someone elses shit. Not that I would of course, fighter pilots used to have to put a lot of trust in my work.

My philosophy is that if you do it by the book you really can't go wrong. Could it possibly be done better? Maybe, but more often than not when people do something that isn't by the book it is much worse than if they had done it by the book. It never ceases to amaze me that people will follow a youtube video of someone doing a particular task for the first time, and doing it *wrong* no less, over just following the procedure in the service manual. You'd think the manual was written in Greek. People won't even look at it. Amazing. Personally, I find it extremely easy to follow.

 

[riverszzr]

trackday, I do have a customer in Chicago who makes the trek to Apple Valley every spring. He surely could haul your bike too.... hint hint, wink wink...lol

Rj- re your post #26

The tolerances is part of the problem I speak of, and while they are acceptable for acceptable performance, they are not acceptable for exemplary performance

Your comment on "return per dollar"......... I am absolutely talking about FREE performance just by being more exacting and more conscientious of what and how one does routing maintenance.. It is free, one just has to put in the effort and time to do it.

No doubt we could continue down the rabbit hole and some will understand many will dismiss it..... I at this point don't really much care for those who dismiss it and have no time for those people.
One of those cases where "I know what I know, and I know it works because I have done it numerous times with real testing" which is far more than any of the naysayers can lay claim to.
~ not putting you in either category~ but I could list off dozens of forum members who clearly fall in the lack of caring attitude category, because they know not what they don't know and never will because they find life simpler to believe a lie than to actually try and understand the truth.

 

[trackdayhero]

Appleton is 6 hours and 45 minutes from me, but Chicago is 4 hours and 30 minutes.

 

[Strider]

I would probably be better off having RIvers work on my stuff but I just enjoy doing stuff myself, even if sometimes it doesn't come out perfect the first time. I enjoy figuring out where I went wrong and improve for the next time. But then, I have actually been a mechanic for a good part of my life so I already have most of the basics that get non-mechanics into trouble quickly. I enjoy working on my own stuff but I don't really have a desire to work on anyone elses stuff. I would be happy to let them use my tools and sit through something with them but ultimately I don't want to be responsible for fucking up someone elses shit. Not that I would of course, fighter pilots used to have to put a lot of trust in my work.

My philosophy is that if you do it by the book you really can't go wrong. Could it possibly be done better? Maybe, but more often than not when people do something that isn't by the book it is much worse than if they had done it by the book. It never ceases to amaze me that people will follow a youtube video of someone doing a particular task for the first time, and doing it *wrong* no less, over just following the procedure in the service manual. You'd think the manual was written in Greek. People won't even look at it. Amazing. Personally, I find it extremely easy to follow.

I love my service manual! I don't understand why people won't look at it either.

 

[riverszzr]

Fricking ma Kaw corp.

I ordered up 40- 2.925 shms and only 6 arrived, enough to button up that bike last week, but now yet another fricking C14 in need of............. you guessed it, 10- 2.925 shims and all I have is 3.
Seriously how the fuck can they only have 6 in the entire USA warehouse network? and worse yet not be able to tell me any idea when I could expect the rest.

I got sick of waiting, Went to Honda and ordered 50 of them with overnight shipping, I'll have them Monday morning, well some of them anyways about half are in stock between 3 warehouses.
Sadly I have yet another C14 scheduled for next Wednesday----I am sick of C14's- they absolutely suck to work on. Blast to ride, suck to do maintenance on, come to think of it, there is not a bike on my price list that costs more to do than the C14.

 

[jerryg951]

Good shit riverszzr. I wish I lived closer would love for you to work on my bike. I cant trust the mechanics out here for shit.

 

[AlexZX6R]

Goober. I am glad you are back!!

No big surprise considering who runs the show!

Perhaps they finally wised up and decided I was needed back to correct the error of their ways!

Look forward to your post's. Keep up the great work at your shop. You provide such an amazing value of service to your clients out there. Awesome stuff man. !!!

 

[riverszzr]

Look forward to your post's. Keep up the great work at your shop. You provide such an amazing value of service to your clients out there. Awesome stuff man. !!!

Who you calling Goober, goober.... You must have been looking in the mirror whilst typing again. :nana:

 

[riverszzr]

C14's are a blast, yes they are...Okay they are a blast to ride and enjoy, just not so much to actually do any service on

So much fun working under the frame, and by the time you strip off all the bodywork, the 6 sub frames, the 4 sound deadening foam blocks, and spend atleast 30 minutes removing all the sand and bugs from around the valve cover area. Well then you get to finally pull the valve cover (which always leak on these for some reason) and adjust valves, synchronize throttle bodies--oh those are a joy too, since about 5 electrical plug connections and vacuum lines are in the way to get the sync access caps off
Then of course the under the frame throttle bodies require a bike specific tool to adjust the synchronization- god forbid if the screw tips are dirty and need to be removed for cleaning (as is usually the case) before you can actually do the synchronization. Because then you are looking at throttle body removal, which you have to do after the tank is off- and then through the frame structure to get off the intake.

Oh yeah, the frame box is the airbox and full of sand and bugs too.

Fun fun fun.

I love my job, even when it is working on one of the worst bikes for service accessibility

The stick coils all cleaned up and ready to go back on
The space in which to work under said frame
oh it does have variable cam timing on the intake cam too

 

[oldninjadude]

Good shit riverszzr. I wish I lived closer would love for you to work on my bike. I cant trust the mechanics out here for shit.

A big +1 on that.

 

[oldninjadude]

From now on I'm doing my valve adjustments, But I would pay the big bucks to have rivers work on my bike.
For the peace of mind & confidence the work was done & done right.

 

[riverszzr]

From now on I'm doing my valve adjustments, But I would pay the big bucks to have rivers work on my bike.
For the peace of mind & confidence the work was done & done right.

Well I am not sure what you are doing right now is "doing it by myself" :nana:

I'll get to your PM's--been a busy day, finally done for the day.

 

[oldninjadude]

With a little help from my friend..... ^ Indeed.

 

[shocker35]

Welcome back. I haven't seen you call anyone completely retarded in awhile so thats kind of disappointing. I did have a few questions for you. Should I post them or PM you?

 

[riverszzr]

Welcome back. I haven't seen you call anyone completely retarded in awhile so thats kind of disappointing. I did have a few questions for you. Should I post them or PM you?

Are you completely fucking retarded? :nana:

PMing me seems to be all the rage these days, you can do either.

 

[shocker35]

ha, right.

I bought an 06 CBR 600rr a few months ago for track use only. He said the bike has about 12k miles on it but it was crashed the cluster was replaced with a reading of 16k which is still not a huge deal since I only paid 2k for the bike. Now the bike has what I would call an autozone special exhaust. it looked like hand bent exhaust piping with a shiny autozone tip welded onto it. The bike does have PC and he said he runs the bike with a open header map but the bike still has the CAT so its not really open. Another detail is that the stock, according to the diagram is supposed to have an O2 sensor right at the collector but there is none and there is no hole for one either. My question: Since I have the bike pretty much apart is there anything I should do to make sure the engine is healthy besides checking spark plugs? I am new to this whole thing so before I begin to button it all back up and put it on the track I was to make sure its in decent shape. Also I did purchase a stock exhaust because the autozone special was pretty rusted out.

Next issue: the coolant overflow bottle has a small plastic tab that feeds through a bracket to keep it in place. Well that tab has broken off leaving a small hole so the previous owner filled it with some kind of what I could call caulk. I took it off because I didnt know what was accomplishing. What should I use to plug that hole up better since it sits next to the engine.

Thank you.