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oil change is very country specific thing. It's a cultural thing. some would thing it's mechanical or petrochemical thing, but it's not.

almost all the cars in europe have 9000-10000miles oil change intervals. Lot of cars, like mine, have long life oil change interval, which is anything from 15000miles to 20000miles. the car estimates the need of change with some sensors and shit(counting cold starts or something(total revolutions or used fuel amount). if someone would start to sell a car to some german guy and say it needs 3000mile oil changes, no one would buy that car. that is because europeans are cheap. germans expecially.:laugh the whole long life oil change was invented for germans, german car makers started that hype.

but you can guess the oil is pitch black way before the oil change. it's so dark, it's like a black hole. and the oil and engine gets so dirty that every second oil change the car needs the whole engine to be washed with some 'FORTE' cleaner(inside). So the long life oil is not that hot idea. it just lets germans away from going to oil change. Actually they need to add oil, because car consumes the oil as it gets thin. But they rather add some oil by them selves, than go to a oil change. and adding the long life oil is expensive, its like 15euros per litre. Every Volkswagen car (new) delivered has 1 litre in the boot, so owners can add that.

But new car with synthetic good oil can go easily 10000miles and you can run 200-300000miles with the engine. One guy said it right. Basicly you gain nothing for changing the oil at 3000miles. if you drive potentially 300000miles with the engine you change the oil 100 times. 50$x100 is 5000$ that's a lot. with 10000mile interval it's just 1500$(maybe you don't drive a same car to 300000miles, but eventually you do those miles, it just spreads to more cars than one.

I had honda 954 it promises 7500mile intervals for oil change. but I changed the oil every 3000miles as the engine sound changed already to more harsh sounding and the oil was very black. I did trackdays and wheelied it pretty often. I think in hard usage the 7500mile interval is really stretching it.

The first thing to suffer in the engine is the cam chain. it has no pressure lubrication and bad oil makes it to wear fast.

JT
 

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awww, geez.... the oil change issue is a complicated one to say the least. okay, to determine when to change the oil you NEED to have an oil analysis performed, anything short of that is simply guessing. thats it, period. newer cars utilize sensors that analyze a cars oil and trigger a "dummy" light when it is time for an oil change (older systems simply used a monitor system that kept track of rpm's vs. time running vs. temperature vs. ect ect). Older SAE grades of oil are much different than todays SL and SM rated oils. Used to be that oil would not turn "black for quit awhile, and you'd think you had a clean engine, but the problem is that the contaminants were there, but they were building up in the engine as sludge. this is because they oil did not have retaining abilities. With todays advanced oil's, turning dark is a good thing, it means that the oil is retaining contaminants that will exit the engine when you drain it. BUT, the oil can only hold some much of the naughty stuff, so you have to change it the oil when it becomes "saturated". The ONLY way to know is to have an analysis done. Now, I know that I dont have my oil analyzed before every oil change, i just follow a couple of easy guidelines; i use familiar oils so that i know what it looks like going in and can watch it as it turns dark, and I NEVER go beyond 6,000miles or 6 mo just for peace of mind. And lastly(for this comment anyway), I don't know who started the whole long life thing, but it wasnt because someone was cheap, it is for practical and environmental reasons. If oil doesn't NEED to be changed, why change it is their thinking(want not, waste not). the only reason we, as Americans, still follow the 3mo/3,000mi rule is because we are told to;by manufactures and retailers, so they will profit. I love changing my oil, it is relaxing, but the truth is....it can probably wait.
 

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Maybe I should clarify "break-in". For a brand new motorcycle the following is recommended by most engine builders;
1) Start the bike and let it warm up.
2) Shut off the engine and let it cool to ambient temperature.
3) Start the bike and let it warm up
4) Find a place where the RPM's can be safely varied, away from heavy traffic. Remember the break-in isn't necessairly about how many miles, but most people agree the first 40 miles of a bike does 80% of the break in.
5) Start by running the rpms up to 7000 and then engine break back to 5000. You should always track the time spent at the higher rpms and spend the same amount of time between 4000 and 5000 for the engine to cool back down
6) Next run it up to 9000 rpms, again let the engine break it back down to 5000.
7) Next run it up to 10000 rpms, repeating the above.
8) Continue with the running up of rpms until you reach redline, for most bikes is 16,000 rpm.
Afterwards your bike is properly broke in. Continue to vary the RPMs never holding the same rpms for very long until 500 miles is reached.
Just curious, not argumentative, but why do you break your engine in this way? what are these specific actions doing for the engine? what are these specific actions preventing from happening to the engine?

Not saying you are wrong in your statement.

If I used this method I would probably atleast change the oil first, perhaps right after the camshaft break-in period, which would be the 20(or whatever) mins at fast idle (ya know, just to drain the assembly lube and other shit out).
 

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No problem, I can explain. The metal parts that work together with each other soften their hard edges until they mesh more easily. Also the break-in performs a vital heat-treating process. Heat cycling the parts in the confines of the engine particularly round parts like pistons and cylinders relieves residual manufacturing stresses. MOST IMPORTANTLY, a proper break-in will give the piston rings optimal seal in the cyclinders minimizing "blow-by"
Racers and engine builders break their engines in on a Dyno. We do not have that luxury so we have to perfom this vital function on the city streets. It really all has to do with the seating of the rings. This window of opportunity is the first 40 miles, someone had posted 20 miles. I have also heard the first 8 miles. Really you just hope whoever test rode your bike the first time broke the engine in properly. This is why you must use Mineral or "Dino" oil. Of course Dino is a misnomer, but everyone is used to calling it that. Synthetic oil is so good it prevents the engine from breaking in properly. Of course everyone asks then why it that some cars come off the assembly line with Synthetic? The answer is that Synthetic is the best thing you can do for a new engine, except the little part about seating the piston rings. Of course automobiles are not turning 16,000 rpms either. For most of us, in an automobile we would not notice a difference.
For the record I do not build or work on engines nor claim to have special powers. I do read alot of motorcycle books however. Also you can visit the following website: www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

I hope this helps.
 

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No problem, I can explain. The metal parts that work together with each other soften their hard edges until they mesh more easily. Also the break-in performs a vital heat-treating process. Heat cycling the parts in the confines of the engine particularly round parts like pistons and cylinders relieves residual manufacturing stresses. MOST IMPORTANTLY, a proper break-in will give the piston rings optimal seal in the cyclinders minimizing "blow-by"
Racers and engine builders break their engines in on a Dyno. We do not have that luxury so we have to perfom this vital function on the city streets. It really all has to do with the seating of the rings. This window of opportunity is the first 40 miles, someone had posted 20 miles. I have also heard the first 8 miles. Really you just hope whoever test rode your bike the first time broke the engine in properly. This is why you must use Mineral or "Dino" oil. Of course Dino is a misnomer, but everyone is used to calling it that. Synthetic oil is so good it prevents the engine from breaking in properly. Of course everyone asks then why it that some cars come off the assembly line with Synthetic? The answer is that Synthetic is the best thing you can do for a new engine, except the little part about seating the piston rings. Of course automobiles are not turning 16,000 rpms either. For most of us, in an automobile we would not notice a difference.
For the record I do not build or work on engines nor claim to have special powers. I do read alot of motorcycle books however. Also you can visit the following website: www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

I hope this helps.
awesome answer. I was an engine builder/machinist by trade but now it's just a hobby, so i was just curious what the reasoning was. I'm glad some on has a real reason for why they do, what they do.

breaking in an engine is a paradox in and of itself. on one hand you have to take it easy so that all the new metal can "seat" itself and wear in to on another(i.e. camshafts, valve seats, bearings), and on the other hand you need to run it under load so that the rings can seat in. there is no real time frame per-se, although what happens in the first miles cannot be undone. the main things to remember is don't rev the engine without a load, make sure it warms to normal operating temperature and is run for at least 5-10 mins, and DONT let it get flooded before it has broken in as cylinder wall wash-down will end with you having a smoking pile of poo that uses more oil than gas.

But when all is said and done, i've seen asses start a new engine, rev the shit outta it and start racing and the damn thing ran better than the one that was broke-in properly and sometimes the opposite happens. sometimes it almost seems like its just the luck of the draw.
 

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I work for a dealership in wisconsin. We recommend oil changes every 2,500 miles. But we also let people know if they ride harder or more city to change it alittle more often. And if they dont ride it as much and not hard at all, you could get away with 3,000 miles. But never more than that. But after reading these posts im not sure i wanna say anything...... Its all opinions and every dealer and rider and mechanic will not agree with all the recommendations. But hey, thats why we have forums. So we can all talk about it and make the best desicion we believe on what we read.
 

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No problem, I can explain. The metal parts that work together with each other soften their hard edges until they mesh more easily. Also the break-in performs a vital heat-treating process. Heat cycling the parts in the confines of the engine particularly round parts like pistons and cylinders relieves residual manufacturing stresses. MOST IMPORTANTLY, a proper break-in will give the piston rings optimal seal in the cyclinders minimizing "blow-by"
Racers and engine builders break their engines in on a Dyno. We do not have that luxury so we have to perfom this vital function on the city streets. It really all has to do with the seating of the rings. This window of opportunity is the first 40 miles, someone had posted 20 miles. I have also heard the first 8 miles. Really you just hope whoever test rode your bike the first time broke the engine in properly. This is why you must use Mineral or "Dino" oil. Of course Dino is a misnomer, but everyone is used to calling it that. Synthetic oil is so good it prevents the engine from breaking in properly. Of course everyone asks then why it that some cars come off the assembly line with Synthetic? The answer is that Synthetic is the best thing you can do for a new engine, except the little part about seating the piston rings. Of course automobiles are not turning 16,000 rpms either. For most of us, in an automobile we would not notice a difference.
For the record I do not build or work on engines nor claim to have special powers. I do read alot of motorcycle books however. Also you can visit the following website: www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

I hope this helps.
he said what i thought... something like that lol
 

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..... Really you just hope whoever test rode your bike the first time broke the engine in properly.
They get a good workout throughout the gears and rev range right off the production line. Hopefully all the real ring sealing was done there.
 

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pretty much all the manufacturers start the bike up and let it warm up, then redline it through out the gears.

bikes like aprilia had top speed indicator stuck to 299km/h, as they rolled all those bikes up to the max before shipping them out.

some bikes thou are shipped without oil, so I wonder how they can be have been started up? triumph is one example.

Speed triple's are notarious that when you change the initial 1000km/mile first oil change there is lot of metal in the oil. they are made little rougher then jap bikes.

I always change the filter during oil change, and I also press the blow back valve on the filter and drain the collected grud. at 20000km the triumph is one of the cleanest bikes, the filter didn't have any pieces. compared to my 954 which always had metal flakes and stuff. it worked fine.

I have been thinking that keeping eye on the oil filter collected grud I can monitor the engines health similar way to aeroplane engines. It triumph is usually pretty much clean, then I know if it starts to brake up that something is giving.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
My next question:

I just called my dealer and to get an oil change done it would be around $100 (between the oil, filter and parts and labor). So I'm going to try and do it myself. Anybody know a good walkthru? I am not very good at this sort of thing, but at the same time I don't have $100 to throw away.
 

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Service manual walks you through it. I think this forum has a downloadable version for ya. If not email me and I'll send ya the pages from the book dealing with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
It says I need an "oil wrench". What is that?

Also-- are torque wrenches hard to use? I need to go buy one, any suggestions?
 

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Just go to the auto parts store and buy the smallest oil wrench for like 4 bucks. It will have a handle with a rubber loop. The loop tightens around the filter. Rather simple...if that doesn't work ram a long screwdriver through it and twist! ha-ha
 

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Dude your like 20 minutes from me, figure out a day we're both free and I'll show ya how its done. takes like 30 mins and most of that is waitin for the oil to drain out
 

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I would like to see literature on which manufactures break-in their engines at the factory and which ones don't. As far as I'm aware the dealer is responsible for "set-up", to include adding oil and gas, as they are shipped dry. Bikes come from the factory in crates and need some assemble at the dealership. Dunno for sure though.

What is an oil wrench?!?!?!?!?!?! AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! hehe, just joking. Everyone starts somewhere, and just like most of my buddy's it usually starts with a $100.00 quote for an oil change.

Ummm, yeah, make sure to tighten the filter to spec. I, uhh, yeah, ummm, hehe, was a slacker once and on a sub-zero day the filter loosened while coming off an exit ramp and as I began cresting the 140mph mark I felt "something". Ends up that I lost traction at 140+mph and dumped oil all over my buddy. Thermodynamics can be a bitch!!! hot, cold, hot, cold, improper torque and BAM the filter comes loose. Now they call me Valdeez(as in the oil tanker).
 

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Sounds like to me they shouldn't have been following so close. You know James Bond also used oil to get away from the enemy.
 
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