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Discussion Starter #21
:eek: WTF?! LOL...the same thing seems to have happened to us this weekend but....+28.5!?!?
Whaaaat??? :eek:
Like I said, it was a pretty drastic change :BigGrin Now you understand my apprehension about riding it the first time after the changes.
 

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Wow over 1" up in the front and down around .5" in the rear. That is drastic.
 

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Like I said, it was a pretty drastic change :BigGrin Now you understand my apprehension about riding it the first time after the changes.
So does it feel like riding a Harley with an I4 engine now? :devilish

I mean you must have so much trail, that you're probably close to that! lol...I thought it was a noticeable difference when I raised my front by 5 mm. Yours was already higher and now you increased it another 28, and lowered the front by 14?? Holy crap!

I don't understand how that helps it turn better. That goes against all physics and bike dynamics. I would think you'd be running off the track in every turn from going way wide with that setup.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
So does it feel like riding a Harley with an I4 engine now? :devilish

I mean you must have so much trail, that you're probably close to that! lol...I thought it was a noticeable difference when I raised my front by 5 mm. Yours was already higher and now you increased it another 28, and lowered the front by 14?? Holy crap!

I don't understand how that helps it turn better. That goes against all physics and bike dynamics. I would think you'd be running off the track in every turn from going way wide with that setup.
A bike which is under-trailed will also turn in with difficulty =)
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Well, there is definitely no way anyone is achieving that setup without fork extenders!
Yep, as I said I am well into the range of the extenders...although I believe the K-Tech cartridges do not extend the OEM fork length the way the racetech ones do that you have...so I am sure that I am higher than your setup, probably not as much as you may think.

I cant wait to get back on the track with this thing...which reminds me I have a LOT of prep to do if I am going to race the next round. My poor bike has been neglected for far too long.
 

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Yep, as I said I am well into the range of the extenders...although I believe the K-Tech cartridges do not extend the OEM fork length the way the racetech ones do that you have...so I am sure that I am higher than your setup, probably not as much as you may think.

I cant wait to get back on the track with this thing...which reminds me I have a LOT of prep to do if I am going to race the next round. My poor bike has been neglected for far too long.
Let us know how it goes once you get some more seat time at race pace.
 

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Yep, as I said I am well into the range of the extenders...although I believe the K-Tech cartridges do not extend the OEM fork length the way the racetech ones do that you have...so I am sure that I am higher than your setup, probably not as much as you may think.

I cant wait to get back on the track with this thing...which reminds me I have a LOT of prep to do if I am going to race the next round. My poor bike has been neglected for far too long.
This seems really bizarre to me. Everything I've read from you (and others) has been that these bikes like to be tall in the rear. This is why many riders shim their rear shock if they don't have an adjustable length aftermarket shock.

So you're actually getting the bike to turn in EASIER with the rear LOWER? Am I the only one super confused here??:dowhat
 

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So you're actually getting the bike to turn in EASIER with the rear LOWER? Am I the only one super confused here??:dowhat
No, you are not lol
 

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This seems really bizarre to me. Everything I've read from you (and others) has been that these bikes like to be tall in the rear. This is why many riders shim their rear shock if they don't have an adjustable length aftermarket shock.

So you're actually getting the bike to turn in EASIER with the rear LOWER? Am I the only one super confused here??:dowhat
It's the mystical/magical world that is the black art of suspension and bike geometry!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #31
This seems really bizarre to me. Everything I've read from you (and others) has been that these bikes like to be tall in the rear. This is why many riders shim their rear shock if they don't have an adjustable length aftermarket shock.

So you're actually getting the bike to turn in EASIER with the rear LOWER? Am I the only one super confused here??:dowhat
These bikes like to be tall in general, but I am pretty sure that I never specifically said tall in back. I *have* said that they need to be tall in front. This was just taking it another step forward.

General chassis mojo states that if you want the bike to turn, lower the front end. These bikes are the exact opposite.
 

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General chassis mojo states that if you want the bike to turn, lower the front end. These bikes are the exact opposite.
And this is where my understanding stops...why is it different on THESE bikes?? They're still 2-wheel machines. How can the zx6r be the opposite of all other bikes in this regard?

Do you know what the stock trail and rake is on the zx6r and what your bike is setup at now?
 
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And this is where my understanding stops...why is it different on THESE bikes?? They're still 2-wheel machines. How can the zx6r be the opposite of all other bikes in this regard?

Do you know what the stock trail and rake is on the zx6r and what your bike is setup at now?
Was going to say the exact same thing...physics is physics. A Harley will always turn slower than a sport bike.
 

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I'd guess that the rear geometry is dominated by the squat/anti-squat aspects, rather than the relationship that is developed to the steering neck from the rear axle. How the chassis rotates fore and aft under power is also going to alter the rake and trail. Biggest effect there is likely to be the extension/compression of the fork, but it all plays together.

Once you're on the side of the tire and the fork and swing arm's motion in the 'vertical' plane is not the dominant direction of wheel travel when you hit a bump (now it's going at least partially 'side to side'), how the frame flexes, the swing arm moves side to side, the tire sidewalls, all play a part in steering response. Front tire contact patch obviously changes depending on tire profile, too.

I'd think when the bike is laid way over, when you put an input to the bars, that is likely to result in the fork extending or compressing as the wheel initiates the change in chassis attitude. A longer fork would provide a bit more leverage from the increased 'trail', but it's also probably more resistant to changes in length.
 

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These bikes like to be tall in general, but I am pretty sure that I never specifically said tall in back. I *have* said that they need to be tall in front. This was just taking it another step forward.

General chassis mojo states that if you want the bike to turn, lower the front end. These bikes are the exact opposite.
Please note that I'm *not* arguing with you, but asking you to explain how this works if you're able,

Kawasaki sells shock shim kits explicitly to raise the rear. I've installed shims (washers) on two ZX6R's and both bikes turned better.

I have no idea why this worked..... this is incredibly confusing.
 

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Discussion Starter #36 (Edited)
Please note that I'm *not* arguing with you, but asking you to explain how this works if you're able,

Kawasaki sells shock shim kits explicitly to raise the rear. I've installed shims (washers) on two ZX6R's and both bikes turned better.

I have no idea why this worked..... this is incredibly confusing.
I get ya, and I can't fully explain it yet because I haven't had the time to go through all of the numbers.

What I can tell you is that the rear shock is still currently taller than stock but I lowered it from where it was previously set at.

This is why I did not want to discuss numbers until I had a firm understanding of where I am currently at.

More to come as I get the chance to ride the bike =)
 

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I said the bikes geometry feels lazy a good while back and y'all said I was nuts :p
You tell me exactly what to do to liven it up without screwing it up though and I'll give you 1 million internet points! Lap times aside, it would just make it a more fun bike to ride.
 

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Seems like Pslo got it right with this setup. I've seen some Graves zx6r builds in the paddock and they all have that tall front he was describing. I've improved on my turn in with riding technique to get it to turn but still struggle to get it to transition quickly.
 

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Its very interesting to see how much knowledge you have about suspension and geometry..yet still, as you say, there are guys who are just specialists in it. My experience is rather limited in general. But I have noticed amongst my friends who do race or are considered experts .. no one readily admits to how much these are hugely important areas that some mechs simply understand better..


Next month I'm going to approach a guy who works on zx6r track bikes and ask him to do my suspension as I'm 100% sure that this bike can do better ..

That and its always KICKASS when you actually love something you've owned for a while :love:(y)

Thanks for the awesome write up!
 
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