Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R Forum banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,927 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
What a great opening round. It was full of surprises.

Pitt crashing at the start with nowhere to go after Rea his teamate highsided in front of him. :( Foret running out of fuel on the last lap on his R6. :doh Parkes snatching the win right on the line :hail

(The Stalker was the 1st ZX across the line in 9th).

The supers? - yeah well, welcome to the Ducati cup, regardless of what won race 2. :rant
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
69 Posts
yep it was a great race. I think supersport and superbike is even more interesting then motogp. lot more things going on during the race and it's fun to think that they are based on streetbikes.

looks like ducati has advantage now, but also they have very good drivers there. But during the last race it was clear that I4's still has power advantage, even from the behind of the suzuki, the ducati just can't hang on.
ducati massive torque probably makes it easier to drive fast during the corner part of the track.

I hope they stick with this new twin rule for some years, that would probably force japs to build SP-03 with 1200 twin engine. or even new TLR with big twin. at least we can live in hope.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,927 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
IMHO the 1200cc rule sucks. It will destroy Superbike racing. There use to be a 750/4 1000/2 rule and they changed it to 1000/4 1000/2

Simply because Ducati said if you don't we wont play anymore. They should have told Ducati :bigfinger Even Aprilia has seen the light, they'llbe back in 2009 with a V4. They didn't bother building a cheaters bike. Ducati should have sucked it up and built a V4 too, they did for MotoGP.

Twins are doomed, they can't compete with 4's unless they get a capacity advantage which is :bs and cheating IMHO

Brand new bike, not bad, wait until they get it sorted :rolleyes

Race 1

1) Ducati
2) Ducati
3) Yamaha
4) Ducati
5) Suzuki
6) Honda

Race 2 - we're getting better, next round at Phillip Island we'll take the top 5 spots - no probs.

1) Suzuki
2) Ducati
3) Ducati
4) Ducati
5) Ducati
6) Ducati

Hello boring Ducati Cup.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
476 Posts
Haga's highside was pretty cool... Neither of the BSB riders impressed much... Kiyonari was dissapointing. But then again Bayliss and Corser were on the ball, so it wasnt too bad.

Both Trumpy's in the Supersports sha themselves... lol.. unlucky for McCoy and Aitchinson.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
600`s were good,wsbk crap! i agree ducati should be out, 1000cc limit for all,boring ducati cup,hope moto gp will be better!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
348 Posts
What it really comes down to is engine speed. The fours can spin to speeds that are literally limitless(technology allowing) because of the nature in which they deliver and make their power. This in turn let's them make way more power with the same displacement than twin cylinder engines. To keep twins and fours at the same cc's is unfair to the twins. Plus, Ducati does not need an "advantage" as far as displacement goes. They proved this over and over by winning a few SBK titles (two words- TROY BAYLISS) but with the newest fours getting over 200hp at the back wheels it's hard for the twins to compete. Ducati's not gonna sit there and be beat just cause they make a certain type of engine that puts them at a disadvantage with the rules. I would too, and chances are so would you if you knew how competitive it was. It would be a waste of money, plain and simple.

A stock Ducati 1098 makes roughly 160hp. A stock ZX10-R makes 170hp AT THE WHEELS, before ram-air. Get the picture. Even though 1000cc fours have consistently upped the power at almost a 10% a year ratio, the 1000cc twins have basically hit a wall as far as power is concerned. The only way to make more power now is with rev's and if a racing twin rev's any more than it does now then you'll get a lot of problems with vibration, race reliability, and overall tractability of the bike.

As you can clearly see with the current season's racing, the advantage does not exist. The Ducati's are up front cause they're good race bikes, not cause it's got a 1200cc motor. In fact all this has done is made the racing more competitive. In fact the fours are still a bit faster, but at least now it's not murder to the twins. Now it's more than just Troy Bayliss up front in a Ducati. Sure he did it with a 999R, but it's clear to everyone that he was pushing that thing to the very limit, sometimes with disastrous consequences.

I say, this is a good move. If after a year of development it is clear the Duc's have a serious advantage, trust me, they will change the rules. If there is one thing racers are also fast at, it's complaining about another teams advantage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,927 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
But Ren, we've been there done that. The twins used to have a 250cc advantage, it got taken off them. Ducati cry we're not playing anymore unless you let us win again without us spending so much money on the engine configuration of our choice because we're not building a format to suit the current rules. They should have got a big FU!

They shouldn't have even been allowed to race last year, the rules clearly state it must be a current production model which the 999 wasn't last year. Again, let's cut them some slack.

It even shits me they still call it a 1098 when it's not the engine capacity they're racing with. :rolleyes

I know all about the advantages and disadvantages of V2's vs I4 theoretical and practical, my last 3 bikes were 750/4 1000/2 1000/4.

Ducati built a 4 to compete in MotoGP, if running a twin is so important to them, why aren't they doing it there?

2nd race ever with the new engine and they take 2,3,4,5,6 the series is going to be so boring, just like 2003 (When the Ducati factory was the only factory team to race that season - :rolleyes)

Anyway - I doubt we'll see eye to eye on the issue :) :cheers

(Ducati have always built highly strung expensive engines. When they were racing back in the 740/4 vs 1000/2 and Honda decided to join them to beat them, Honda beat them with 2000km throw away cranks against Ducati 500km throw away cranks).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
900 Posts
Good points Steve, I thought the WSS was good at the start, but a bit boring in the middle, pleased to see 'The Stalker' bring it home in the points in 9th.

Haga's off was mental, shake your fist by all means mate, but not at that point.

Like him or loathe him Bayliss is a god on a bike and has proved it time and time again.

The duke is a good package but for the first 4 races (I think) they are monitoring 1st and 2nd placings if the twins are kicking arse then they will incur a 6kg weight penalty.

I like the fact that Ducati are in WSB, I wish Triumph or Benelli were in there with a triple. Racing (and especially winning) sells bikes, and without WSB Ducati would be history. That fact in itself doesn't justify allowing them to win but to compete on hopefully a fairly level playing field.

It was great to see the GSXR get a win with Nieto speed on the start/finish was astonishing and it was a shame Neukirschners tyres went off in the first.

With regard to 2nd to 6th in race 2, look at the riders Xaus, Biaggi and Bayliss are all capable of winning WSB any weekend on any bike.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
348 Posts
But Ren, we've been there done that. The twins used to have a 250cc advantage, it got taken off them. Ducati cry we're not playing anymore unless you let us win again without us spending so much money on the engine configuration of our choice because we're not building a format to suit the current rules. They should have got a big FU!

They shouldn't have even been allowed to race last year, the rules clearly state it must be a current production model which the 999 wasn't last year. Again, let's cut them some slack.

It even shits me they still call it a 1098 when it's not the engine capacity they're racing with. :rolleyes

I know all about the advantages and disadvantages of V2's vs I4 theoretical and practical, my last 3 bikes were 750/4 1000/2 1000/4.

Ducati built a 4 to compete in MotoGP, if running a twin is so important to them, why aren't they doing it there?

2nd race ever with the new engine and they take 2,3,4,5,6 the series is going to be so boring, just like 2003 (When the Ducati factory was the only factory team to race that season - :rolleyes)

Anyway - I doubt we'll see eye to eye on the issue :) :cheers

(Ducati have always built highly strung expensive engines. When they were racing back in the 740/4 vs 1000/2 and Honda decided to join them to beat them, Honda beat them with 2000km throw away cranks against Ducati 500km throw away cranks).
^^^^^^^First of all you can't compare what is developed in Moto-GP. That is a prototype series. If that was your argument than where is Honda's V4, or Suzuki's? Where are the Japs fours? Those engine confg's are based on a whole different set of needs for a bike. Like it needs to rev to 20,000rpm.... something a 1000cc twin will prob never do.

Also, you can't compare a huge factory effort like Honda's to Ducati. Honda has so much more money to do testing and research. Ducati still bases a lot of what they do on theory and calculations, even in Moto-Gp. Honda has 10 times the budget that Ducati has.

World Superbike is a production series, and therefore should be based on production bikes. We all know that a 1000cc V-twin will never be as powerful as a I-4. Sure one could argue that Ducati chose that engine configuration and it should deal with it. But what are the Japanese so scarred about?! Just 'cause they can't dominate?

Everyone is pointing a finger at Ducati asking for a bit more displacement, but no one is pointing to the fact that the I-4's have been dominating the field for years. Would you rather the series not include twins? Than it really would not be World superbike, it be World Japanbike.

If the Japanese saw an advantage in racing V-twins than they would do it. They've done it before. They don't really care what kind of engine is used. Ducati on the other hand follows a rich tradition. They race what they sell. They've always sold V-twins so that is what they race, it's their heritage.

The big reason Ducati won so many WSBK champions is that they got on the ball early with traction control. They saw they were at a disadvantage and they spent the money to develop the system. Guess what? All the Japanese factories bitched till they were blue in the face claiming that Ducati again had an unfair advantage. So everyone started using TC and the Jap's started winning again(big surprise)

Ducati has to defend themselves cause they run twins. Everyone else runs fours so it's literally one vs. the rest. Why is the performance bar set by the fours?!? how come it's all based on what is better for the Japanese factories?!? That is not fair....

Motorcycle-Usa.com pointed this out in an article about the new 1098R:

"...The rules are set-up so that Twins will be subjected to a 13 lb (6kg) weight penalty and the use of air restrictor plates which can increase or decrease the level of performance based on the results during the 2008 World Superbike season. If it's too dominant right out of the gate then the smaller restrictor plates will be used to level the playing field. Conversely, if they get spanked, then larger restrictor plates will open things up in an effort to close the gap on the In-Lines. Pay close attention in the upcoming months as to how this will all play out - it's sure to be intriguing...."

You see, it's all in an effort to level the playing field. Upping the twins displacement does just that. The new fours just make too much power compared to twins of the same displacement.

999R-140ish HP out of the box.
ZX10-R-180ish out of the box.

Both 1000cc displacement but one is at a serious disadvantage, no?

We might only be able to agree on one thing and that is that we disagree.

:cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,927 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Everyone is pointing a finger at Ducati asking for a bit more displacement, but no one is pointing to the fact that the I-4's have been dominating the field for years. Would you rather the series not include twins? Than it really would not be World superbike, it be World Japanbike.
Ducati could build a 4. Problem solved.

Here's how "the I-4's have been dominating the field for years". 3 championships out of 20 :laugh 4 championships for V4's (7 X 4 cylinder championships in total) and 13 championships for twins.

1988 - Honda V 4
1989 - Honda V 4
1990 - Honda V 4
1991 - Ducati 2
1992 - Ducati 2
1993 - Kawasaki I 4
1994 - Ducati 2
1995 - Ducati 2
1996 - Ducati 2
1997 - Honda V 4
1998 - Ducati 2
1999 - Ducati 2
2000 - Honda 2
2001 - Ducati 2
2002 - Ducati 2
2003 - Ducati 2
2004 - Ducati 2
2005 - Suzuki I 4
2006 - Ducati 2
2007 - Honda I 4

Ducati on the other hand follows a rich tradition. They race what they sell. They've always sold V-twins so that is what they race, it's their heritage.
You should tell that to my mate that rides a Ducati single. And how many cylinders does their road going Desmosedici RR have? 4!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,195 Posts
If the Japanese saw an advantage in racing V-twins than they would do it. They've done it before. They don't really care what kind of engine is used. Ducati on the other hand follows a rich tradition. They race what they sell. They've always sold V-twins so that is what they race, it's their heritage.


Ducati has to defend themselves cause they run twins. Everyone else runs fours so it's literally one vs. the rest. Why is the performance bar set by the fours?!? how come it's all based on what is better for the Japanese factories?!? That is not fair....
Correct me if I am wrong... but is one of the points of racing to improve tech? Raise the bar? Why does ducati get a displacement advantage over the 4's beacuse they are just better? Sounds like ducati needs to stop trying to hold on to 'heritage' and just realize that a 4 is a much more logical choice...
Also the whole reason ducati uses the L twin config is beacuse it alows them to have a better center of gravity and a narrower bike? Also they use the twin beacuse something to do with the power pulses and putting the power down exiting a turn...
Now dosent that sound like an advantage over the 4's? Lets see... ducati's usualy will always have an advantage on a smaller track with turns than a jap bike will... Thats an advantage...

It just seems like the japs get the best advantage which is pure power... and ducati bitches and since its ducati everyone sheds a tear... omfg we cant pwn everyone like ferrari does in F1.. our italian pride is hurt... =(

Like seriously if they INSIST on using the L twin config they need to work on other things to eliminate the power difference... or you could just stop going aginst the grain and make a I-4 and stop bitching.

Now I am one of them people who likes to be different... I would perfer a ducati to anything... i love the sound of the engine... but seriously if its not the best thing to race with then make a 4 and have 2 different bikes...

cant hold onto the past... gotta move foward...

I say go make a crazy rotory or turbine bike for next year ducati and see where that takes you lol

just my 3 cents (i get 3 beacuse like ducati i am italian and i get a displacement advantage)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
900 Posts
You can't direct compare L-Twin to In Line 4, if they had the same capacity an I-4 would pi$$all over the twin. IMHO all thats happened is over the course of WSB one type gets ahead so the other type bitches and pulls in front, until the first type bitches and it keeps on going that way. People perceive Ducati have an advantage because WSB rights and promotion are by an Italian company, if so why did they allow the 750 to 1000cc change a few years back. I can't see the twins getting any bigger in capacity than they are now as piston speed is at the edge of the limit and you can only go so short on the stroke. Hopefully the field will be levelled part way through the series this year. I just wish they had never abandonned the 900cc Twin versus the 750cc Four. They made much better road bikes than the 1000cc machines.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
348 Posts
What I meant by dominating the field is that Japanese machinery makes up most of the field.

Plus, the Desmocedici is basically a one-off. They aren't gonna start making Moto-Gp bikes now on a continuous basis. They can't, it's in the rules, thats why it's a prototype series. If the bikes did not drop to 800cc in 2007 that bike would not exist on the road today.

Just make a four cylinder?!? Are you kidding?!? Why just cause it holds an advantage in this championship with these rules?? Now they should change everything they have stood for just cause of a displacement issue?!

It seems nobody here is thinking of what that actually means... Do you wanna see a bunch of copy-cat four cylinder bikes with different colors and badges or do you want a diverse field with even competition?? I think the latter is what makes racing interesting for fans all over the world.

You shoot off saying.." Yeah, why don't Ducati just make a four cylinder engine already?!"

Ummm... Cause they are not selling themselves out, that's why. They don't need to turn their backs on their heritage just because of engine physics in relation to rules of one racing championship.

The twins are still slower, even with an extra 200cc, so where is the advantage????? Why is everyone complaining about it??? This just ensures that the twins stay competitive, that's all... THEY ARE STILL SLOWER THAN THE FOURS!!!!!!

For those who still don't get it here it is from the mouth of the man himself, World Super Bike General Manager Mr. Paolo Ciabatti:

"...In the past in World Superbike, there was a period when the twins were 1000s and the fours were 750s. That was supposed to be, at that time, reflecting the sport bike market production. They were racing with the same levels of tuning and the racing was quite balanced. Then production of Japanese manufacturers moved their top sports bikes to 1000cc four cylinders. The situation was basically that on the market, you would have these bikes delivering from 170 to 180 horsepower, and 1000cc twins would be 140 or 150 horsepower. That was mainly a problem for Ducati, which was making sport twins because they could not sell a product that would make sense. Their bikes were lacking 20-30 horsepower compared to their competitors. At that point Ducati decided they wanted to stay with the twin-cylinder concept but they wanted to be able to go for more horsepower to cope with market demands. They decided that their limit would be the 1200cc because with a 1200 they can make 160 to 180 horsepower and be on the market with the same performance as all the Japanese bikes.

Having said so, World Superbike is the class where all manufacturers who make sports bikes can compete with set rules and with balanced rules, without having to make compromises on their production philosophy. At that point the story goes, when Ducati made their decision—I think this was 2005—they started talking at the MSMA [Motorcycle Sport Manufacturers Association] level, saying, “We have these intentions because we will move our production in the future toward 1200cc engine displacement.” There was discussion at the manufacturers’ level, which came to a conclusion at a certain point that there was a proposal for technical rules allowing the twins and balancing everything with air restrictors and other criteria. At that time—we are talking 2006—the rules were not accepted by the FIM and FGSport. Ducati had already made their plans to move their production to twins larger in displacement than 1000, and also KTM at that time had said, “We also are planning that; we think the next level of sports twins is the 1200 because we can be competitive on the market.” We knew that the twin-cylinder manufacturers would soon be only having 1100cc and 1200cc twins, and we can’t keep the rules the same because it will not be reflecting the market for our racing series. There would be no twins in the series; it would become a four-cylinder series only, and we did not want that. We wanted as many manufacturers as possible competing with their production machines modified and with fair and balanced rules. That’s the criteria and philosophy of World Superbike...."

Hopefully that sheds some light on why the rule change took place and how it's affects are closely monitored in an attempt to keep the sport level and competitive.

You people seem to think Ducati is a spoiled brat who is complaining, but as you can see, they aren't the only reason for the rule change. Why isn't anybody bitching about KTM???

Think about whats best for the sport as a whole. It's not that hard to understand...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,927 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
You people seem to think Ducati is a spoiled brat who is complaining, but as you can see, they aren't the only reason for the rule change. Why isn't anybody bitching about KTM???

Think about whats best for the sport as a whole. It's not that hard to understand...

KTM weren't already competing and said if you don't change the rules we're taking our bat and ball and going home like Ducati did. One bike, a poofteenth of superbike sales globally and they get to call the shots.

Aprilia are back in '09, with guess what? A V4. :yumyum
.
And again the 600s were more exciting than the Supers yesterday. Race 1, Bayliss lead from start to finish :boring The 600's had 13 lead changes, (that's crossing the line, there were way more mid lap as well).

:laugh

The twins are still slower, even with an extra 200cc, so where is the advantage?? Why is everyone complaining about it This just ensures that the twins stay competitive, that's all... THEY ARE STILL SLOWER THAN THE FOURS!!!!!!
When Bayliss did his superpole lap, he set the fastest time ever. No superbike has gone around Phillip Island as fast and you say the twins are still slower. :dowhat
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,195 Posts
I think holding onto a L twin engine and complaining when a better designs makes more power and is faster then crying and saying your gonna pull out of the races is gay.
thats what everyone is bitching about. Ducati should either find a way to improve the engine they insist on or make an advance in technology... again make a rotory or turbine or v-6 or something for the 1000cc class... not change the rules to suit them beacuse they refuse to change their design...
If the twin aint workin then fix it... stright up. Imagine if F1 or nascar didnt allow engine manufactuers to advance the engines or areodynamics beacuse the orginal racer in his steam powered horseless carriage is bitching... pretty much that stem powered horseless carriage is ducati... they think that holding onto steam powered engines with thier evolutionary Steam-tec varible valve timing system. lol

i think they need to pick a displacement and stick to it beacuse thats how the classes work. Either that or make the classes based on engine design.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Well NASCAR has more rules than an all girls catholic school and it pisses me off. I do not want to see a sport like WSB go in that direction but I will say that they need to have one big rule such as displacement, engine set up, or even a horsepower to weight or something and everything else be left up to the manufacturers. Of course there will be safety rules and all but I want manufacturers to compete to design and build the most badass bike possible and then have that translate into the market. That is how and why racing was started.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
900 Posts
Steve you're bang on the money - the 600 race was fantastic start to finish just like WSB used to be 10 years ago.
In the WSB Fabrizio was damn lucky to get away with his stall on the grid, how the fcuk did he get his boot ripped off and still ride? Biaggi's off was amazing how the hell the bike didn't land on him I don't know.
The only silver lining in the WSB is how fast that GSXR1000 is that Nieto is on, I wonder if he turned off the traction control again for second race like he did at Losail, I think that is one of the routes to put the rider skill into it more remove TC.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
428 Posts
I think some of you are getting confused? WSB with Bayliss are 1000cc and 1200cc. The WSS 600cc with Chris Walker is a different championship with our bikes and Triumphs.

I hate to say it But, the Kawasaki's in both WSB and WSS performed shit this weekend again!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
428 Posts
I retract my comment about people getting confused & different classes I didn't read it properly. It's Monday morning and i'm a twat! sorry
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top