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First gear wheelie progress

19K views 109 replies 15 participants last post by  08SpecialEdition 
#1 ·
Heres my first time practicing

 
#4 ·
Yeah man. On the second video I think I am actually getting a feel for Balance point. It started to feel weightless a bit and I definitely brought the front end up higher than the first time I was trying clutch ups. I have a feeling next time I go out I should be able to hold them out much longer and bring em up higher.

I went +11 in the rear so thats a 54 tooth rear sprocket lol.

I'm only posting up videos because Rj2112 always asked me to post up some vids. I know they aren't the best footage but I am on my journey to become a stunter. I will post more videos as I progress
 
#5 ·
Definitely more time on one wheel in the second video....

Not being a stunter, Having only experienced wheelies on dirt bikes well before you were born it seems like doing them from a standing start would make it tougher to learn. You're trying to do quite a few things at nearly the same time, which require different actions to control them.

Just seems like spreading out the different steps would make it easier to learn each part.

Getting the wheel up, then keeping it up (balance point), and doing both at low speed seems like at least three things happening together.

I recall power wheelies in my youth that could go on for hundreds of feet, because I wasn't chasing a balancing point. I realize now, that it would have been easy to do, simply by shifting my weight further back.

Trying to learn that, with an upper speed limit complicates things.

You seem to initiate the wheelies pretty well, but end up chopping the throttle to control your speed, which drops the front.

My uninformed suggestion would be to let your speed increase and just concentrate on the balance point. Can't tell how big your playground is, but it looks pretty large.... If you have the room, use all of it.

Once you have the feel of the balance point, THEN work on doing it at lower speed.

Loft the front, get to balance point, maintain. Once you get to maintain, forward speed becomes less important.
 
#6 ·
To touch on something RJ says above:

I don't stunt nor do I have any wish to try it. But I do appreciate those that can do it, AND take the time to properly learn how to! So props to you!

Question: Have you increased your idle speed? I know many stunters are leaving their idle up around 3k or so in some cases because it helps with allowing the front end to stay up a bit easier when you have to shut off throttle. I agree that you're probably (like me) a little freaked out when the wheel comes up that high, and letting off (a bit too much) throttle to keep the wheel in the air.

Just something I thought of while watching your video without the sound on :D
 
#8 ·
Yeah I raise my idle to 3k. I am still in the learning process at the moment but I progress each day I do go out.

I need to stop being a pussy and keep on the throttle lol. I am gettting closer to balance point. It feels like the bike is weightless the higher I go, so I need to start learning to tap the rear brake if I ever go too far back. I will be posting more vids on my progress on this thread. Thanks for watching and giving me some tips!
 
#10 ·
The feeling that you are near the balance point is hard to isolate, when you are trying to do it slowly..... much easier to control it with smaller throttle movements, which I have to think are easier when you have some speed on the bike. Trying to adjust 5-10% is a whole lot less involved, when that change is 90 to 80%, rather than 15 to 5%. The 3K idle speed helps to 'fill in' the uneven power delivery at small throttle settings, but it's much, much more uniform higher in RPM. A world of difference up above 6-8K, compared to 2-3K.

I also think the tipping point is much more vertical than what it feels like from the seat of the bike. Seems to me that your body position needs to be further back on the frame to make it easier to get the nose up. Get your arse all the way back over the passenger section. I'd consider actually sitting on the passenger section, to get that position into your muscle memory.
 
#13 ·
I say that you don't need to worry about how fast you get to the balance point, until you can consistently get there. Chase the wheelie for a while, rather than specifically trying for balance point. I'm willing to bet that you'll have a much better feel for it, when you can keep the front off the ground for 10 seconds or more.

When you feel it come up, leave the throttle at the same point, and let the bike decide how high it's going..... As it speeds up, the front will start to drop, so you can think of it as a natural limiter for height. Learn how to land it softly, rather than letting it slam back to earth.

Once you're comfortable with 'this much throttle = this high (max) in xx seconds', THEN work on moving your weight further back on the bike. That will translate to higher front, for the same throttle, in roughly the same time. You can work on different aspects of the wheelie, one at a time.
 
#16 ·
I would say that you aren't using the bike's power band, at all. Too low in RPM overall, and probably trying from too low a starting speed. 5 MPH into a 10 MPH wheelie is not an easy thing. A 20 MPH starting speed, with the wheelie bringing you up to 30 MPH -- that's IMHO a much easier thing to control, because the timing of it is far, far less critical. More time to adjust what you're doing between the stages of the wheelie. You seem to be trying to stop the nose from coming up earlier than is possible, if you want to balance the bike on the back tire. As soon as the nose comes up, you seem to cut the throttle to try and slow how fast it's coming up. At the very least, you need to hold the throttle constant, and likely need to give it a bigger kick in the pants to bring the nose where you want it to be.

Balance is going to be with the chassis at something like 60° or more, depending on how far off the seat you are willing to extend your body's mass. I doubt that you achieved more than 45°, probably more like 40 in the first half of the video I watched.

Please understand, no criticism is intended. Just describing the physics and where I think your bike and body are at compared to what you have said your goal is.

Low RPM = Low inconsistent power delivery. I would think it would be a lot easier to work with the motor to control chassis position if it were turning 6K or more. Up there, the amount you twist delivers a much more consistent change in power output. 8K even more power, smoother delivery.... ask for more get more, rather than ask, ask, ask, BANG.
 
#17 ·
Yes I understand what you are saying. But, in the world of stunting best way to learn control and balance point is to start a wheelie from almost dead stop. That way you wouldnt be up high in rpms and chasing out a wheelie.

I do admit however that I am being a pussy when the wheel comes up and I let off the throttle. Over time I will get over that fear and eventually bring it up balance point from a dead stop and learn slow "idle" wheelies.

I went out today for about an hour of practice. I got some progress and will post the very short video soon. Thanks! ?
 
#20 ·
Thanks for the advice man. Yeah I'm definitely chopping the throttle for sure. I am still working on keeping on the throttle after I clutch it up. Also, I am tapping the rear brake but I am no where near balance point yet.

I am going to get a scrape bar and subframe from a town customs.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Lookin good. Youre definitely doing it right it terms of setting up for the clutch up and the actual clutch up, just need need the follow through afterwards. Youre kinda in a tough spot right now because you dont have the scrape bar on the back yet. In terms of learning wheelies theres 2 ways to do it. Option 1 -learn wheelies at speed and try to never loop it while slowly creeping up higher each attempt until you find the BP and get the hang of it working it. Or, option 2- learn wheelies at idle speed with a stunt bike and accept the fact that your going to loop it a dozen times before getting the hang of it, but its okay because youre only going 10mph tops so you wont get hurt. For option 2 you really just gotta commit and crank your idle up higher, but I would be hesitant to do that without the 12 bar on there yet because youll just fuck the whole nice back end right up. Its really highly unlikely anybodys ever learned idle wheelies using the slowly creep up on each attempt and never loop it method, just not plausible. Not having the 12 bar yet is probably why youre hesitating so much after the clutch up. Maybe until youve actually got the 12 bar installed it would be more worth your time to practice your medium speed wheelies with the intent of not looping it. Theyre 2 totally different skills and muscle memory patterns to get the hang of and you'll probably wanna learn how to at least do a sweet sitdown at medium/freeway speeds... not that I would ever endorse doing wheelies on the streets... because theres a rule that says you shouldnt do that and everybody knows wheelies arent cool... lol.

with OEM gearing, red line in first on my '09 is around 60+ MPH. If I were to go from the 46 tooth to a 60, that should reduce wheel speed for a given RPM by about one third, shouldn't it?
Yeah youre probably right. But based on personal experience going to a sprocket that big makes a HUGE fuckin difference in how it feels.

So putting the sprocket change into Sprocket Calculator - The easy motorcycle sprocket and chain calculator shows we actually only lose -20.4% top speed and gain +20.4% torque. But I swear somehow 20% does not seem to adequately account for how hard those huge sprockets feel like they pull lol
 
#29 ·
I am probably a bit hesitant because I do not have a scrape bar yet. You are right. Also to make things clear, I do not mind throwing this bike around and getting it dropped a couple of times. This bike is dedicated to the purpose of stunting.

I will just take my time to learn this stuff and I dont mine sharing the horrible wheelies along the way lol. Thanks for having some input guys I really appreciate it. I will stick to clutching it up from almost a dead stop until I get higher and higher and eventually learn when to use the rear brake. Looping is inevitable, I just hope to have the scrape bar in soon as soon as I have some funds cleared up. Peace! ?
 
#31 ·
Good job man. I first gear wheelie on my ninja 300 but replacing chains is a PITA so don't do it much. Even if I did I'm not too good. lol.

Can't really help you out with techineque but I remember reading that the frame can potentially crack with so many wheelies from stunting. Just to keep in mind for the future. Of course by then you'll probably have a totally stunt bike ;)



And @theDoc, you come out of nowhere with good posts. How about an intro :)
 
#32 ·
Good job man. I first gear wheelie on my ninja 300 but replacing chains is a PITA so don't do it much. Even if I did I'm not too good. lol.

Can't really help you out with techineque but I remember reading that the frame can potentially crack with so many wheelies from stunting. Just to keep in mind for the future. Of course by then you'll probably have a totally stunt bike ;)

And @theDoc, you come out of nowhere with good posts. How about an intro :)
Frame can crack but not commonly and you have to do a LOT of wheelies before it happens. If it does can get it welded or theres full steel tube frames custom made to replace the stock aluminum one. You have to be pretty deep down the stunting rabbit hole to get to that point though lol

Been lurkin this forum for a few months, got a '14 zx6r last summer and kawiforum was a little dead. First wheelie i ever did was actually an 09 ninja 250 almost 10 years ago lol. Go 10kph, clutch in, rev to 11k, dump clutch, boom 12" high wheelies haha. Later on made a 2001 zx6r stunt bike, was pretty crunchy but had a sick black/green custom paint job with monster energy decals and custom made monster energy aluminum can coolant overflow. Later had a 2003 cbr600rr stunt bike. Never got super good at stunting, was starting to work on circles around the time I got tired of hurting myself and kinda slowed down on stunting half way through med school. Not sure how active they are anymore but check out stuntride or stuntlife for stunt forums. Thats where it was at back in the day.
 
#35 ·
Hey Doc. There is one thing I have realized. STUNING IS HARD AS FUCK. IT IS NOT AS EASY AS THEY MAKE IT LOOK OM YOUTUBE.

I feel as I am stuck on the same page at the moment. I cant seem to get any progress and I kind of have an idea what I am doing wrong. Everytime I bring the front end up, I am letting off the throttle. I do admit I still get spooked by the feeling, but it is something that I will overcome with time. It is starting to feel more "natural" to me everytime I go out and practice and bring it up higher. ?
 
#38 ·
Just eyeballin another random ass dyno from google it would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 25hp... but its not so much the power that would be helping him, its the new-found inability to chop the throttle. Now, when the instinct to close the throttle and let off the gas after he initially clutches it up, even if he lets off 100% the idle will provide more than enough baseline throttle to negate that reflex and will keep the wheelie going and all he has to do is modulate the rear brake. This of course only works when doing a wheelie at idle speed.

As for how high the idle can go im not sure, depends on the bike and what you're adjusting. Some bikes have a direct idle adjust cable, some have a fuel enrichment adjuster that effectively changes the idle speed within a certain range, which is what my first stunt bike had and practically speaking could only adjust so far. My last stunt bike had a little set screw on the throttle body that determined the minimum amount of throttle opening possible by physically blocking the spring mechanism from pushing all the way fully back, and I had to get a cable with a screw on the end of it to put in place of the set screw thus creating an idle adjuster cable. Im not sure what these bikes have but if its an actual adjuster cable then I guess it would depend on how long the screw on the end is and when it would bottom out. Practically speaking I dont know of any reason somebody would want it much higher than 4k though.
 
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