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post #16 of 35 Old 05-23-2017, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
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Looking good out there man! That's awesome you were on the track with Farrell!
Pretty sure I got lapped by the whole Rhoades Racing/Farrell Performance Racing team since Jody Barry and Mark Rhoades were in those races too lol

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post #17 of 35 Old 05-23-2017, 08:59 PM
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You would have lapped me twice over lol
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post #18 of 35 Old 05-23-2017, 09:01 PM
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Awesome riding sbk1198...When the fast guys come around... just hold your line... and do your thing... Let them figure out where to go...


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post #19 of 35 Old 05-23-2017, 09:32 PM
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Awesome riding sbk1198...When the fast guys come around... just hold your line... and do your thing... Let them figure out where to go...


.
DING DING DING! We have a winner!

Just be smooth and predictable. The rest will sort itself out =)
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post #20 of 35 Old 05-23-2017, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
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Awesome riding sbk1198...When the fast guys come around... just hold your line... and do your thing... Let them figure out where to go...


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DING DING DING! We have a winner!

Just be smooth and predictable. The rest will sort itself out =)
Still afraid I'm gonna get hit at some point. People collide in racing, and the higher the speed difference, the higher the chance. A guy I know was there as well, and it was his very first time racing, and his first time at the track. Within about 4-5 laps he got clipped by a faster guy that went around the outside and he was done for the weekend. Sometimes the fast guys get it wrong too.

I feel like they should have blue flags in club racing lol...I think that would be helpful maybe. I also feel bad about being in the way. I have no doubt that someone probably lost the chance of moving up a position or so because he might've lost a second while lapping me

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post #21 of 35 Old 05-23-2017, 10:15 PM Thread Starter
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You would have lapped me twice over lol
Believe it or not, there was a guy who was an expert (somehow) who got lapped by literally EVERYONE in one of the races. I passed him on the first lap, and I couldn't believe that I had caught back up to him by lap 6 or 7 again! And I thought I was having a bad day! That dude was really struggling for some reason

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post #22 of 35 Old 05-24-2017, 05:26 AM
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Still afraid I'm gonna get hit at some point. People collide in racing, and the higher the speed difference, the higher the chance. A guy I know was there as well, and it was his very first time racing, and his first time at the track. Within about 4-5 laps he got clipped by a faster guy that went around the outside and he was done for the weekend. Sometimes the fast guys get it wrong too.

I feel like they should have blue flags in club racing lol...I think that would be helpful maybe. I also feel bad about being in the way. I have no doubt that someone probably lost the chance of moving up a position or so because he might've lost a second while lapping me
I am not ruling out the possibility that the passing rider made a mistake. It certainly happens but also consider this:

We stress "smooth and predictable" to AM riders. As an expert making a pass, my speed differential can reach > 30mph in some areas. Also, at the speeds we are riding at we have an extremely low margin for error meaning that we simply do not have the grip available to make a change in direction. We are riding at the limit. Add those two things together and it means that I am committing to a line to make a pass ~2 seconds before the rider even knows that I am there and I cannot deviate from it or I will crash. If the AM rider does something that I do not expect....well, bad things happen.

I certainly do not buzz AM riders out of fun :-p. Trust me, and I mean no offense at all, I try to leave as much room between myself and another rider as possible. Sometimes either track position or how strategic the pass is (meaning I have another rider hot behind me and I need to create a gap) will necessitate a close pass. I try to do that as infrequently as possible.

It is certainly not an ideal thing, and there have been many that question the idea about having AM and EX riders on the track at the same time. We actually run a 3rd group at our CCS events; "novice" for those who are really green. This means that by the time they make it to AM they should at least have some experience under their belt which can help with everyone staying safer on the track.
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post #23 of 35 Old 05-24-2017, 06:28 AM Thread Starter
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I am not ruling out the possibility that the passing rider made a mistake. It certainly happens but also consider this:

We stress "smooth and predictable" to AM riders. As an expert making a pass, my speed differential can reach > 30mph in some areas. Also, at the speeds we are riding at we have an extremely low margin for error meaning that we simply do not have the grip available to make a change in direction. We are riding at the limit. Add those two things together and it means that I am committing to a line to make a pass ~2 seconds before the rider even knows that I am there and I cannot deviate from it or I will crash. If the AM rider does something that I do not expect....well, bad things happen.

I certainly do not buzz AM riders out of fun :-p. Trust me, and I mean no offense at all, I try to leave as much room between myself and another rider as possible. Sometimes either track position or how strategic the pass is (meaning I have another rider hot behind me and I need to create a gap) will necessitate a close pass. I try to do that as infrequently as possible.

It is certainly not an ideal thing, and there have been many that question the idea about having AM and EX riders on the track at the same time. We actually run a 3rd group at our CCS events; "novice" for those who are really green. This means that by the time they make it to AM they should at least have some experience under their belt which can help with everyone staying safer on the track.
That's definitely true. Everyone stresses to be predictable from early on even at track days. I always try to be as consistent and predictable as possible, and usually I am, but sometimes people mess up. In fact, the way I crashed my R3 Sunday is because the guy I was trying to pass was on a different line than usual. I watched his line for about 4 laps when I was behind him and he was always consistent. Then on the lap that I tried to pass him he went into T2 too tight, and then ran wide on the exit as I was coming around the outside carrying more speed. He went all the way to the edge of the track, not knowing I was next to him, and I had nowhere to go and ended up off the track in the wet grass. I hindsight, I know there were a few things I could've done differently to avoid that...such as letting off the throttle a bit sooner and abandon the pass. Or take a different line myself and pass him on the inside as we were exiting. But I didn't expect him to take a different line at that particular time since he was so consistent before. And I know I've made that same mistake before too.

Oh well...racing incident...could've been worse. Better this way than to hit him and we both would've gone down.
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post #24 of 35 Old 07-18-2017, 07:24 PM
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Not sure how I missed this first time around.

First, nice riding sbk1198. Some day I hope to reach your level of riding.
Next, join the club.
That looked like my first road america track day. Monday at least a dozen riders from the A group who never rode at RA decided to do the I class.
There there was the dozen riders in I who RA was there home track. Then little ole me, never saw the track before and had my butt handed to me. So I had 2 dozen riders passing me like I was standing still.

Was I humbled, AGAIN. Yes. Oh, well they and YOU give me a goal to strive towards. In the mean time, I'm having a BLAST.

Just wish my legs were not so sore a couple days after riding the track. OMG stairs SUCK.
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post #25 of 35 Old 07-19-2017, 08:34 AM
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Every rider that passes me is a physical reminder of just how much left that I have to learn. This is a GOOD thing. If I ever get to the point where I know it all (impossible) then I will quit as the sport will no longer hold my interest.

Watch what the faster guys are doing. This is why I always run video, front and rear. The rear in particular is very helpful in that I can see when/where people are closing gaps on me so I know that I can carry more speed in that section.
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post #26 of 35 Old 07-19-2017, 11:26 AM
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Gosh I wish I had a safe track close enough to me to do club racing. This is exciting! I love picking through this kind of footage when I am riding to see where I can improve. I haven't even been able to do a track day yet this year and I'm getting antsy. One of my issues looks like the first part of your video. I have a hard time passing. Like I'm afraid to get off the racing line to make the pass.
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post #27 of 35 Old 07-19-2017, 11:36 AM
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Gosh I wish I had a safe track close enough to me to do club racing. This is exciting! I love picking through this kind of footage when I am riding to see where I can improve. I haven't even been able to do a track day yet this year and I'm getting antsy. One of my issues looks like the first part of your video. I have a hard time passing. Like I'm afraid to get off the racing line to make the pass.
That comes with time and experience. It took me years before I was comfortable passing regularly.
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post #28 of 35 Old 07-19-2017, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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Gosh I wish I had a safe track close enough to me to do club racing. This is exciting! I love picking through this kind of footage when I am riding to see where I can improve. I haven't even been able to do a track day yet this year and I'm getting antsy. One of my issues looks like the first part of your video. I have a hard time passing. Like I'm afraid to get off the racing line to make the pass.
Yeah that guy took me by surprise. He was an expert, and it made no sense to me how I caught up to him so quick (on the 2nd lap, and he had a 15 second lead start). I thought he maybe had a problem or something so I hesitated a bit.

As far as tracks...you're in Arkansas. Can't be too far away from some of the CMRA and WERA tracks. You're basically right in between. Sure you have to drive a bit but so what? This track in the video was an 8-hour drive for me.

Yes, I drove 8 hours each way to crash a bike in the first race, and get lapped by a bunch of people in my next 3 on the other bike! .....I never said I was a winner, but better than sitting home
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post #29 of 35 Old 07-20-2017, 06:57 AM
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Yeah that guy took me by surprise. He was an expert, and it made no sense to me how I caught up to him so quick (on the 2nd lap, and he had a 15 second lead start). I thought he maybe had a problem or something so I hesitated a bit.

As far as tracks...you're in Arkansas. Can't be too far away from some of the CMRA and WERA tracks. You're basically right in between. Sure you have to drive a bit but so what? This track in the video was an 8-hour drive for me.

Yes, I drove 8 hours each way to crash a bike in the first race, and get lapped by a bunch of people in my next 3 on the other bike! .....I never said I was a winner, but better than sitting home
As you've found out, not all experts are created equal. I've seen a few that were pretty damn slow and the winning novices would pass them, even with a 2 wave start.

That being said, there could be a host of reasons they are slow. Bike problems, first time back after a year or two, or they've just always been slow and just did enough racing to get the points to get bumped. Everyone has a different ceiling in their riding ability before they really plateau hard.

I'm a believer in that being an Expert is more of a whole rider concept. Over the years, I've learned a lot, some painful mistakes I made myself, most I learned from watching others. To me, being an expert is knowing yourself, your limits, and what you can and cannot do on your motorcycle. It's about being able to make sound, smart decisions on the fly with no time to think, just act. It's holding your line through T1 on lap 1 when you have guys bumping your inside and outside while you're all dragging knee. It's about not getting spooked when someone puts a close pass (less than a foot between you) on you and it doesn't phase you - OR, you can be the one passing someone that close and still not interfere with their riding line. It's just not all about flat out speed.

I've known a lot of fast novices that going off pace alone, were faster than a lot of experts. They also crashed their brains out, at least once every weekend. Most of them never made it to Expert as they went broke, either financially from fixing the bike all the time, or broke enough bones in their body they gave up or got forced out of the sport. But with only 2 classes, there will always be the misfits in each class. The sand bagger in Novice that should be an expert, but doesn't get enough points (either done on purpose by skipping rounds or denying the bump) to go expert.
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post #30 of 35 Old 07-20-2017, 09:11 AM Thread Starter
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As you've found out, not all experts are created equal. I've seen a few that were pretty damn slow and the winning novices would pass them, even with a 2 wave start.

That being said, there could be a host of reasons they are slow. Bike problems, first time back after a year or two, or they've just always been slow and just did enough racing to get the points to get bumped. Everyone has a different ceiling in their riding ability before they really plateau hard.

I'm a believer in that being an Expert is more of a whole rider concept. Over the years, I've learned a lot, some painful mistakes I made myself, most I learned from watching others. To me, being an expert is knowing yourself, your limits, and what you can and cannot do on your motorcycle. It's about being able to make sound, smart decisions on the fly with no time to think, just act. It's holding your line through T1 on lap 1 when you have guys bumping your inside and outside while you're all dragging knee. It's about not getting spooked when someone puts a close pass (less than a foot between you) on you and it doesn't phase you - OR, you can be the one passing someone that close and still not interfere with their riding line. It's just not all about flat out speed.

I've known a lot of fast novices that going off pace alone, were faster than a lot of experts. They also crashed their brains out, at least once every weekend. Most of them never made it to Expert as they went broke, either financially from fixing the bike all the time, or broke enough bones in their body they gave up or got forced out of the sport. But with only 2 classes, there will always be the misfits in each class. The sand bagger in Novice that should be an expert, but doesn't get enough points (either done on purpose by skipping rounds or denying the bump) to go expert.
Well said. Agreed on all accounts! I have seen this as well even in my relatively short time in the racing scene.

As far as the slow expert guy I was talking about, from what I have heard, he took a year off and just not got back into it, but the difference in pace from when he stopped until now is HUGE. I can sympathize because I feel like I'm struggling this year in the same manner, and I didn't take time off except for the usual 6 months of winter. Maybe not quite as bad as he was struggling, but still. I'm still a few seconds off my pace from last year. But this guy had to have been closer to 15 seconds off...going from being an expert to being LAPPED by all the amateurs, and being lapped twice by the other experts is a huge difference.

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