2019 MotoGP Season (Spoilers Inside) - Page 32 - ZX6R Forum
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post #466 of 538 Old 10-07-2019, 06:02 AM
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Not yet, but he's going to be. What a snoozer of a race. I wonder when Quartararo is going to decide to try something different and let Marquez do the front running? He has now tried the same thing twice, with the same results.

Is it me, or do these guys suck at block passes? MX riders know how to do it for keeps but the GP riders haven't got it figured out. Instead of overtaking on the brakes the following rider only needs to get beside the lead rider and then push him wide and ruin his drive off the corner. Overshooting the corner and letting the lead rider get the cutback means losing every single time.

Mark
He already is. His stats are more impressive than Rossi's even though he's down by one championship win.

I'm gonna go ahead and say those guys know what they're doing and it's not nearly as easy as you make it sound by watching it on TV For every move there is a counter move to beat that, it's just a matter of whether they plan it and execute it right. When you do a block pass you can't just pull up next to the guy and stay there pushing him wide like you said. The best you can do is get on the inside line so he can't turn where he normally does, but that means you'll go slower because you've now tightened your line. So then the other guy can go around the outside if he does it right. Or if you do go faster, you run wide and the other guy can take a later apex and do a cutback just like Marquez did. Block passes are not easy. They're a lot easier at a track day or amateur club racing level.

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post #467 of 538 Old 10-07-2019, 06:31 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mmattockx View Post
Not yet, but he's going to be. What a snoozer of a race. I wonder when Quartararo is going to decide to try something different and let Marquez do the front running? He has now tried the same thing twice, with the same results.

Is it me, or do these guys suck at block passes? MX riders know how to do it for keeps but the GP riders haven't got it figured out. Instead of overtaking on the brakes the following rider only needs to get beside the lead rider and then push him wide and ruin his drive off the corner. Overshooting the corner and letting the lead rider get the cutback means losing every single time.
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He already is. His stats are more impressive than Rossi's even though he's down by one championship win.

I'm gonna go ahead and say those guys know what they're doing and it's not nearly as easy as you make it sound by watching it on TV For every move there is a counter move to beat that, it's just a matter of whether they plan it and execute it right. When you do a block pass you can't just pull up next to the guy and stay there pushing him wide like you said. The best you can do is get on the inside line so he can't turn where he normally does, but that means you'll go slower because you've now tightened your line. So then the other guy can go around the outside if he does it right. Or if you do go faster, you run wide and the other guy can take a later apex and do a cutback just like Marquez did. Block passes are not easy. They're a lot easier at a track day or amateur club racing level.
I was wondering about that. Is that why MM kept taking the outside on the straight and then overshooting it? I kept asking my screen why not go inside and force FQ to go wide...he didn't want to go inside because he would have to slow too much?

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post #468 of 538 Old 10-07-2019, 12:21 PM
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I'm gonna go ahead and say those guys know what they're doing and it's not nearly as easy as you make it sound by watching it on TV
I'm well aware it is much harder to do than to watch and there is no lack of skill on display there.


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When you do a block pass you can't just pull up next to the guy and stay there pushing him wide like you said.
Then tell me why that is how it is done in MX every race weekend at the highest levels? I've raced MX and there is no response to a properly executed block pass besides rolling off or running off the track. It is somewhat different in road racing because of the speeds involved but the same basic technique will work, but no one has done it that I have noticed. The closest was Marquez last year (I think it was) on Dovi and Marquez won the race because he actually blocked Dovi and ruined his drive off the corner.


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post #469 of 538 Old 10-07-2019, 01:59 PM
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Is that why MM kept taking the outside on the straight and then overshooting it? I kept asking my screen why not go inside and force FQ to go wide...he didn't want to go inside because he would have to slow too much?
i think he was just playing with FQ and practising for the real move
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post #470 of 538 Old 10-07-2019, 03:00 PM
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i think he was just playing with FQ and practising for the real move
Yeah, but obviously MM feels that FQ is enough of a threat when behind him, or that he might not be able to pull away from FQ, that he waits until last lap to avoid a potential battle and comeback.

MM has always exhibited this “stay back and calculate behavior”, but he would always pull the move on Dovi, or Rossi or Lorenzo with like 5 laps left. Then he’d stretch the lead.

MM is smart but there obviously a respect there that he hasn’t had for any other rider.

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post #471 of 538 Old 10-07-2019, 06:37 PM
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There must be quite a pucker factor for the lead rider in that situation. I guess what you're trying to do is suck the trailer into the corner too fast by staying wide and braking maybe a little earlier than necessary, so that when the assumed overshoot happens you can get the bike stopped and turned underneath to get out of the corner faster.

But if the overtaker can get it stopped, he's essentially stopped it at the apex and kept the other guy he just passed behind him and has an easy shot to the finish.

I suppose how far it is to the finish line would make a difference as well, but it seems like a pretty big gamble that the overtaker into the corner is gonna have to drift wide and will leave a window open for the re-pass with better drive to the finish.


It sure does seem like we've seen this move a lot over the last 2 seasons, more than I remember seeing over the years prior. Maybe that's just because we've had tighter races overall? Good stuff though
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post #472 of 538 Old 10-07-2019, 06:50 PM
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I'm well aware it is much harder to do than to watch and there is no lack of skill on display there.

Then tell me why that is how it is done in MX every race weekend at the highest levels? I've raced MX and there is no response to a properly executed block pass besides rolling off or running off the track. It is somewhat different in road racing because of the speeds involved but the same basic technique will work, but no one has done it that I have noticed. The closest was Marquez last year (I think it was) on Dovi and Marquez won the race because he actually blocked Dovi and ruined his drive off the corner.


Mark
MX is a totally different animal. Can't really compare it to this. Can't speak for that as I've never raced MX, but I've done plenty of road races to know how hard it is to do. Pretty sure I have a video of a race from last year where my buddy tried to pass me in T1 almost every lap and then I would do exactly what Marquez did here and got a better drive out of the turn and passed him on the exit.

MX tracks are also narrow, whereas the tracks we race at are 30-40 feet usually. Whenever someone tries to charge up like that on the brakes to try to block your line you have to be really quick to change you approach and re-think how you're going to take that turn. Like I said before, the guy doing the passing is on a tighter line now and he's hard on the brakes cuz he just passed you. So either he's going to run wide because he physically can't keep his line at that speed, in which case take a late apex and get on the gas sooner and cutback underneath him...OR if he keeps on the brakes and manages to stick to the inside line, he has to go a bit slower, in which case you should be able to carry more speed and go around the outside. Those are your main 2 options, but you have to figure that out in a split second as soon as you see him next to you and judge which of the two options will be likely to succeed. If you don't, or you get it wrong, then his block pass will be successful. I would say I've got it wrong more than I've got it right when defending against passes like that. But I'm probably about 50/50 when being the one attempting the block pass. Had plenty of successful ones and had plenty when I got passed back right away.

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post #473 of 538 Old 10-07-2019, 06:57 PM
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I just stumbled on this one. 26g impact on Marquez' from his crash at T7 during FP1!! Maybe I should get one of those airbag systems? 26g is a friggin hard hit....

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post #474 of 538 Old 10-07-2019, 11:51 PM
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Yeah, but obviously MM feels that FQ is enough of a threat when behind him, or that he might not be able to pull away from FQ, that he waits until last lap to avoid a potential battle and comeback.

MM has always exhibited this “stay back and calculate behavior”, but he would always pull the move on Dovi, or Rossi or Lorenzo with like 5 laps left. Then he’d stretch the lead.

MM is smart but there obviously a respect there that he hasn’t had for any other rider.
Totally agree. I think MM went up the outside a few times to show to FQ how strong the honda was and try to rattle FQ and see if he would break. But FQ handled the pressure well. In fact he did better than that - IMO FQ was 0.5m away from winning that race in the braking zone.

I also think MM realises when FQ beats MM in a race then we will see another step up in FQ on track performance.

I hope he can keep it up.
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post #475 of 538 Old 10-08-2019, 07:07 AM Thread Starter
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Totally agree. I think MM went up the outside a few times to show to FQ how strong the honda was and try to rattle FQ and see if he would break. But FQ handled the pressure well. In fact he did better than that - IMO FQ was 0.5m away from winning that race in the braking zone.

I also think MM realises when FQ beats MM in a race then we will see another step up in FQ on track performance.

I hope he can keep it up.
Even though I'm a MM fan and want to see him win every race, I'm all about competition and right now only FQ has been challenging Mark for the most part so I too hope that FQ can finally get one over on mark and up the ante overall between the two. Nothing worse than watching Marquez have 5 second wins.
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post #476 of 538 Old 10-08-2019, 10:20 AM
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Pretty sure I have a video of a race from last year where my buddy tried to pass me in T1 almost every lap and then I would do exactly what Marquez did here and got a better drive out of the turn and passed him on the exit.
The cutback is the correct response in MX as well. The real difference between the two is the speed involved. In MX you can be super aggressive and contact is very common but that is because the speeds are low enough that falling over isn't a huge injury threat.


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MX tracks are also narrow, whereas the tracks we race at are 30-40 feet usually.
Maybe that is the reason. A block pass like I am talking about requires that the passer be very aggressive and run the passee out to the edge of the track. It is possible that the extra room combined with the extra caution required due to speed make it impossible.

A decent explanation of MX block passes:


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post #477 of 538 Old 10-08-2019, 06:47 PM
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But when the pace is much higher you can pass like a boss lol That's from this past weekend and that's Stefano Mesa on his R6.

https://www.facebook.com/545147596/p...302597?sfns=mo

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post #478 of 538 Old 10-08-2019, 06:49 PM
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But when the pace is much higher you can pass like a boss lol That's from this past weekend and that's Stefano Mesa on his R6.

https://www.facebook.com/545147596/p...302597?sfns=mo
Hmm...not sure if that link is showing correctly. Let's try this instead:

https://www.facebook.com/avaipan2/vi...7377236577597/

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post #479 of 538 Old 10-08-2019, 09:22 PM
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Hmm...not sure if that link is showing correctly. Let's try this instead:

https://www.facebook.com/avaipan2/vi...7377236577597/
I need to log in to see that video. Since I refuse to have a fakebook account that is going to be pretty limiting...


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post #480 of 538 Old 10-09-2019, 12:08 AM
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not working for me either "Sorry, this content isn't available at the moment"
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