Loosing grip - ZX6R Forum
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post #1 of 12 Old 07-16-2018, 08:04 PM Thread Starter
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Loosing grip

Happened to me at the last track days. After last turn, past apex, as I was going on the straightway and began accelerating (still maintained some lean angle), preparing to give it full throttle but just then I felt the rear tire went sideways from under me. I rolled off the throttle a little and it gained traction again. Freaked me out quite a bit as this was the first time it ever happened. I brought the bike to the tire guy could also helps with suspensions. He explained that the stock shock comes with firm spring and does not allow much travel. He said not much can be done to the shock nonetheless he measured preload, extended spring some more and adjusted damping for slower return.
I rode like this but then again it happened. Was less scary second time, yet makes me wonder; do I get too much on the throttle? Should I be more "smooth" and accelerate slower as I am exiting the corner?
What's the remedy to loosing rear grip?
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post #2 of 12 Old 07-17-2018, 07:26 AM
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Could be too aggressive throttle application/ too much lean angle for the amount of throttle applied. What tires are you running? Could also be the track surface .... or all the above.
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post #3 of 12 Old 07-17-2018, 03:06 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc995 View Post
Could be too aggressive throttle application/ too much lean angle for the amount of throttle applied. What tires are you running? Could also be the track surface .... or all the above.
I ran q3+ with 28psi cold.
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post #4 of 12 Old 07-17-2018, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by goblin View Post
I ran q3+ with 28psi cold.

Your making this hard. Where are you located, profile doesn't say. Where is the track.
What temps air and track, assume dry.

What lap number, first to fifth same on all?

Picture of tire. Any cold tearing or hot tearing.

Any tar snakes. What group.

Happens at other tracks, which one's.

What temp was the tires coming off the track.



Q3 Track Pressures ? - Tech/Tires/Tuning - Cornering Forum
Quote:
Posted November 12, 2013
The Q3 is not a tire I work with at the track with racers. thus my first hand knowledge with it is limited.

BUT, I did just spend some time speaking with the test riders that did all the development with the Q3, both for street and track. So I have the best first-hand feedback I could get.

Track day pressure for the Q3 is 30 PSI rear cold, and no less than 32 PSI front cold.

if you have a 600, maybe go to 28 rear cold, however, going lower you will not get more grip, but may have instability in the rear, so its not the solution if you want a good clean ride, keep it at 30 or slightly higher to suit your riding.

In the front do not go lower the 32 psi cold. The tire has a tone of grip already, going lower on the pressure only makes the contact patch fight with itself and results in instability, poor steering, heavy steering and chatter. 32 in a minimum, highly consider going a pound or 2 more to get the bike to feel better and steer better. you wont lose grip, but you will gain a better feel and more precise steering.

32 rear and 33 front cold would be right in the middle and good starting point.

There is a point when your lap times justify a good race tire. If you find yourself trying to tweak the pressure on a Q3 to get that last little bit of usable grip, you need to step up to a race tire like D211GP-A or Slicks. If the Q3 is working for you, cool! Stay with it. But if you keep trying to change things to get more grip out of a Q3, you have hit the glass ceiling and it time to step up.
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post #5 of 12 Old 07-17-2018, 05:47 PM
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Yeah what Indy said...need a LOT more info to be able to give any suggestions. Problem could be either with you, or the bike, or the tires, or the track, or a combination of those.
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post #6 of 12 Old 07-18-2018, 05:42 AM
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Loosing grip

Iíll just quote Simon crafar: ďitís not about being first on the gas, itís being first to full gas.Ē You have made your first steps towards a controlled slide out of the corner. Now spend a shitload of money on k-tech or ÷hlins suspension (the one you can get the best support from of the two), get better tires (our bikes likes Pirelli supercorsa sc and metzeler racetec rr) and enjoy!



"Its not about being first on the gas, its being first to full gas"
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post #7 of 12 Old 07-19-2018, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Enrosabil View Post
Iíll just quote Simon crafar: ďitís not about being first on the gas, itís being first to full gas.Ē You have made your first steps towards a controlled slide out of the corner. Now spend a shitload of money on k-tech or ÷hlins suspension (the one you can get the best support from of the two), get better tires (our bikes likes Pirelli supercorsa sc and metzeler racetec rr) and enjoy!
Or in the words of Ken Hill (and maybe many others) - "whoever spends the most time at full throttle wins!"

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post #8 of 12 Old 07-21-2018, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by goblin View Post
I ran q3+ with 28psi cold.

Your making this hard. Where are you located, profile doesn't say. Where is the track.
What temps air and track, assume dry.

What lap number, first to fifth same on all?

Picture of tire. Any cold tearing or hot tearing.

Any tar snakes. What group.

Happens at other tracks, which one's.

What temp was the tires coming off the track.
had to wait until weekend to snap pictures if tires. this happened at Pocono Receway, east track (pic attached). air temperature was in upper 70s. I haven't a clue what tires temperatures were. happened after about 10 minutes into the session, thus rubber was well heated. I'm in novice group too, couldn't be going that fast.
as I said this is the first time ever happened. next w/e going to Lightning, so we'll see if it happens there too. has not so far though.
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post #9 of 12 Old 07-21-2018, 02:28 PM
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Where is the track.
What temps air and track, assume dry. Air 70

What lap number, first to fifth same on all? 10 minutes in.

Picture of tire. Any cold tearing or hot tearing. Picture 3, might be a little cold tearing.

Any tar snakes. What group. Novice

Happens at other tracks, which one's. Not sure

What temp was the tires coming off the track. ?
Would add tire pressure coming off track.
Turns as I counted them.

1 R
2 L
3 L
4 R
5 L
6 L
7 L
8 L
9 L
10 R BARELY
11 R
12 L
13 L

Found this page
Seems 28 might be low.
Quote:
Since we were riding exclusively on track, Dunlop lowered tire air pressures from the OE setting (36 psi front/42 psi rear) to 32 psi in the front and 30 psi in the rearóas this was the most optimum setting based on previous testing.
Sure looks like your giving once side LEFT one heck of a work out.
So keep in mind your right side will always be a little colder than the left.

Would bring up your tire pressures. Try the 32, 30 and see what happens.
Make darn sure YOUR GAUGE is correct. Compare to the suspension guys gauge.
If your using a stick gauge, OMG.
For a track guy, this should be your first big purchase. High end motonpro your looking at $100.
Why, what do tires cost. Correct pressures save them and $$$$
Low side from incorrect pressure cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and your butt.


Thought about it for a bit, try bumping the tire pressure.
The tires look pretty darn good, I'm thinking your getting ham fisted with the throttle. Not being there it's hard to tell.
Get a coach to follow and see what they think.
I've seen many a novice that could be mid pack in Intermediate depending on the day.

Lastly, you really need to get a suspension guy look at the bike.
Your weight, ability, springs and even age of the suspension oil hasn't been addressed. Is the SAG setup correctly.

Here are some video's that might give you some things to think about.




Last edited by Indy; 07-21-2018 at 05:18 PM.
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post #10 of 12 Old 07-21-2018, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goblin View Post
had to wait until weekend to snap pictures if tires. this happened at Pocono Receway, east track (pic attached). air temperature was in upper 70s. I haven't a clue what tires temperatures were. happened after about 10 minutes into the session, thus rubber was well heated. I'm in novice group too, couldn't be going that fast.
as I said this is the first time ever happened. next w/e going to Lightning, so we'll see if it happens there too. has not so far though.
If you're in novice group and you felt the tire slide as you gave it gas out of the turn, then most likely you were just not smooth enough and gave it a fistful of throttle. The other factor is also the tire. Was the pressure too high? Probably wasn't hot enough either, and it's a street tire, so not the most grippy one out there.

The other guess is the slide was very small. It might've felt scary to you but it probably only went sideways by a couple of inches or so. Next time, I suggest you don't roll off the throttle. If it slides more (like a foot or so), rolling off the gas is a sure way to end up on your head from a high side. Keep the gas on...with minor slides like this, traction will regain by itself....usually

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post #11 of 12 Old 07-26-2018, 07:51 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Indy View Post
Turns as I counted them.

1 R
2 L
3 L
4 R
5 L
6 L
7 L
8 L
9 L
10 R BARELY
11 R
12 L
13 L

Found this page
Seems 28 might be low.
This track is all left turn except for 1 right that is pretty tight we almost park to make it.
So, yeah, left take bulk of the load.

I am using a pretty good gauge, quite confident the tire pressure is exactly as it shows. But I'll try 30 rear next time. Wont hurt (I hope).

In respect to suspension, as I mentioned at the top of this thread, this was the first thing I did after experiencing the slid - brought it to suspension guy. He looked, adjusted preload and damping on both front and rear, but said not much can be done with stock parts. So, it has to be then. I just can't bear the thought of spending 3 grand on a bike I bought for 3 grand. Just aint worth it. Makes more sense replacing the bike for newer with already upgraded suspension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbk1198 View Post
If you're in novice group and you felt the tire slide as you gave it gas out of the turn, then most likely you were just not smooth enough and gave it a fistful of throttle. The other factor is also the tire. Was the pressure too high? Probably wasn't hot enough either, and it's a street tire, so not the most grippy one out there.
So, I guess the general diagnosis is I was not smooth. That's fine, still learning. Will have another try at Lightning this Sun.

Thanks for reply. I feel my tires will need replacement soon, I'll prolly go with Supercorsa.
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post #12 of 12 Old 07-26-2018, 08:08 PM
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Not many bikes with upgraded suspension is still worth crap.
The suspension guy I know said many of the ducati's with ohlins had there LOW end stuff and it wasn't very good.

My two cents would be to save up some cash, do track days. WHEN the seals let loose have the forks revalved and springs for your weight.
On the shock, save and wait for a decent one to show up used.
Twist of the wrist II, get your line once your on power hold it with slight increase.
Darn near vertical before full throttle.

Time and practice. Have fun and don't push too hard just let it come.
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