Help! 07 zx6r. Seating camshafts. - ZX6R Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 05-25-2019, 01:34 AM Thread Starter
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[Solved: A single dowel pin wasn't flush] Help! 07 zx6r. Seating camshafts.

Hello I am doing a valve adjustment on my 2007 ZX6R. I got the new shims in I used a mic to double check all shims.

I have tried seating the camshafts now 5 times, but each time, the crank advances clockwise 6mm and then at the same time the exhaust tooth is like 1/2 a pin off hanging in between.

What am I doing wrong?

1) Is there a specific amount I should back the crank off? (sparkplugs are out btw). I noticed if I backed off the crank a tooth, it is less advanced than if I kept the crank on the TDC mark. I'm going to bed now but maybe if I back the crank off 2 teeth it will work? But what if it skips that damn tooth. The tooth gets retarded 1/2 from the ex pin, and the chain is just too tight so I have to take off all the caps and redo the tedious process.

2) When do you put the CCT in. I noticed the CCT is flush with the case so it seems like it doesn't matter if the mounting bolts go in before you seat the cams.

Please help in regards to the skipping exhaust cam tooth. I pull the ex cam tight, and it remains tight until one of the valves pushes open, then the tooth skips and the crank advances.

I would appreciate some insider info. I know there's definitely something I need to change. Maybe going super slow when the dowels have just 2mm left to seat. I am always like 99% seated, then one bolt causes the crank to advance and the tooth to retard. I'll try backing off the crank 2 teeth, and eating breakfast before seating the camshafts. I don't even get to the point where I torque without the tooth skipping 1/2 and hanging. It's hard to describe I'll try to upload a picture but despite there being tension, the chain just hovers over, essentially making the ex mark float 1/2 from being retarded/set backward a tooth.

Last edited by AlexFromCali; 05-28-2019 at 01:59 AM.
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post #2 of 18 Old 05-25-2019, 07:54 AM
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First let me say Ive not done a Kawasaki so not sure if this helps or not.

Did my 2012 CBR600RR and my 2004 FZ6. Had the cams completely out of the CBR, the timing chain sprockets bolt to the cams on the CBR. A little confusing on how to bolt them on - multiple holes but careful review of the manual helped. I put the crank at TDC and then put the cams in place and bolted them down - that was not easy. It uses a girdle with the top half of the cam bearings in it. Several bolts - i tightened in sequence a turn or two at a time until they were all tight - tedious and took some time. put the timing chain on the sprockets and then bolted sprockets in place. As I recall I had to move the crank a bit to get everything to line up but not much - have to watch out for valve clearances. Overall it was supprisingly difficult and took me 2 or 3 tries. Another issue was it appeared to be slightly off - less than half a tooth but apparently that is normal due to production tolerances

The CBR ran perfectly before and after - then I bought the ZX6R and suddenly the CBR wasn't so nice :-)
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post #3 of 18 Old 05-25-2019, 10:54 AM
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Just a dumb question - the cam chain tensioner is not in and/or released, correct? It sounds like you are trying to seat the camshafts with tension on the chain because the crank shouldn't move at all when you are seating the cams. Or at least it never has when I have pulled camshafts (never done an 07, though).


Mark

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post #4 of 18 Old 05-25-2019, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmattockx View Post
Just a dumb question - the cam chain tensioner is not in and/or released, correct? It sounds like you are trying to seat the camshafts with tension on the chain because the crank shouldn't move at all when you are seating the cams. Or at least it never has when I have pulled camshafts (never done an 07, though).


Mark
I believe I figured it out. I swapped shims that are larger than previously. Good thing I wrote everything down. That's just what I got from the calculations. Now I understand that the valve seats probably wore more than the valve stems, making the valve stems protrude higher. Someone gave me a calculation which shows how much clearance each increment makes out.

As for the Chain Tensioner, I have it in and it doesn't touch the chain at all. The place where the chain tensioner goes into, it doesn't protrude to meet the chain guide what so ever. I have the mounting bolts in, not the tension pin. I'll remove it anyway since it should have room to fit with the camshafts seated fully in the first place.

I think it's more likely it's the shims and not the chain tensioner. I looked inside to where the tensioner fits. It should have room to be installed with it reset. I've done it with/without the tensioner with the same result. I'll swap the shims out for smaller, rather than larger compared to the shims that were in there.
I'll update you guys.

Last edited by AlexFromCali; 05-25-2019 at 01:52 PM.
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post #5 of 18 Old 05-25-2019, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexFromCali View Post
Good thing I wrote everything down.
That is always a good policy. I use an Excel spreadsheet to track all of my vehicle maintenance work. For valve lash checks I write down the clearances on a drawing of the head (just a simple schematic of the valve layout showing cylinder # and intake/exhaust orientation) and then scan and import the sheet into the spreadsheet so I can go back to the previous lash check and see if anything has moved or not.


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Originally Posted by AlexFromCali View Post
Now I understand that the valve seats probably wore more than the valve stems, making the valve stems protrude higher.
Yes, that is correct. The valves pound into the seats, reducing clearance between bucket and cam lobe. Valve clearances almost never get looser, they get tighter as the valves work their way farther into the seat.


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post #6 of 18 Old 05-25-2019, 02:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmattockx View Post
That is always a good policy. I use an Excel spreadsheet to track all of my vehicle maintenance work. For valve lash checks I write down the clearances on a drawing of the head (just a simple schematic of the valve layout showing cylinder # and intake/exhaust orientation) and then scan and import the sheet into the spreadsheet so I can go back to the previous lash check and see if anything has moved or not.




Yes, that is correct. The valves pound into the seats, reducing clearance between bucket and cam lobe. Valve clearances almost never get looser, they get tighter as the valves work their way farther into the seat.


Mark
Thank you. I got confused with the A= B-C + D with D. Instead of accomodating for that clearance, I made the new shim take up that space lol! I'll swap out lower shims and make sure to keep it on the tight end of the spectrum

Since I am kind of embarrassed, this is a used bike and the previous owner wheelied this bike all day. It ran 100% fine before I stored it for the valve clearances. The bike has 11,000 miles.

I measured 0.004 for several exhaust valves, up to 0.015 for an equal amount. I read somewhere that someone had clearances about 0.004 and the comments were "Forget the math and pull the head" and "I stopped reading as soon as I saw those clearances". I've seen someone have 0.011 and 0.015 across all exhaust valves and it ended up running fine when adjusted back to range. Any opinion on the 0.004 spec? I forget if it's 0.04 or 0.004 but whatever is in the close range of the tolerances.

This bike ran fine, any PRO/Opinion advice on what I might expect? I'll try shimming to keep it on the tight end of the spectrum since I am already at a loss of clearance in the first place. Don't want to set it to an extreme loose tolerance.
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post #7 of 18 Old 05-25-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexFromCali View Post
Any opinion on the 0.004 spec?
The issue with tight clearances on the exhaust valves is that the valve may not seat properly, which reduces the amount of heat it can transfer to the seat when closed. This can result in a valve running hot and failing. This is no issue on the intake side as they sit in the cool intake flow but the exhaust valves are always scorching hot because they are immersed in the hot exhaust gas flow and they absolutely need the cooling provided by properly seating.

As long as there was an actual clearance (ie - not zero) I would just keep running it, but I am a heathen compared to others here like RiversZZR. My 98 has a specified clearance on the exhaust side of 0.22-0.31mm (0.009"-.012"), so you were half of that. That isn't good, but it shouldn't be the end of the world, either.


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Originally Posted by AlexFromCali View Post
This bike ran fine, any PRO/Opinion advice on what I might expect? I'll try shimming to keep it on the tight end of the spectrum since I am already at a loss of clearance in the first place. Don't want to set it to an extreme loose tolerance.[/B]
Always set your clearances on the loose side. Loose is a bit noisier, but gives the best sealing and exhaust valve cooling and those clearances will only get tighter with time. Setting them tight just means you will be pulling cams again sooner to loosen things up again.


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post #8 of 18 Old 05-25-2019, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mmattockx View Post
The issue with tight clearances on the exhaust valves is that the valve may not seat properly, which reduces the amount of heat it can transfer to the seat when closed. This can result in a valve running hot and failing. This is no issue on the intake side as they sit in the cool intake flow but the exhaust valves are always scorching hot because they are immersed in the hot exhaust gas flow and they absolutely need the cooling provided by properly seating.

As long as there was an actual clearance (ie - not zero) I would just keep running it, but I am a heathen compared to others here like RiversZZR. My 98 has a specified clearance on the exhaust side of 0.22-0.31mm (0.009"-.012"), so you were half of that. That isn't good, but it shouldn't be the end of the world, either.




Always set your clearances on the loose side. Loose is a bit noisier, but gives the best sealing and exhaust valve cooling and those clearances will only get tighter with time. Setting them tight just means you will be pulling cams again sooner to loosen things up again.


Mark
Gee, thanks for breaking bank on that valuable info. Makes complete sense about the valve seating and heat transfer.
I rode the bike an awesome 500-1000 miles after I bought the bike. To be honest I should have done the adjustment right away. I'll give a complete update regarding before/after specs and how it runs. I've done the forks/bushings, chain/sprocket, brain fluid, rear brake replacement. Probably will leave the shock though.

Thanks guys, really do appreciate your time and advice. I got this bike to have fun and learn, all is not lost if it doesn't go as planned
It helps having the right tools because some friends pulled off their own valve cover and couldnt get their size tools to fit to take off let along torque a few bolts that are close to the frame. I am using a tekton 1/4'' 10-120 in lbs torque wrench. Some various allens, rachets, breakers.

I believe my specified exhaust is like 0.24-0.31mm so the measured was 0.04-0.15, but 3-4 valves measured a bit over 0.04. The intake is 0.15-0.18 and were all atleast 0.15. If I'm bored I'll just leave all the intake as they are and just check/adjust when I have free time on my hands. I do plan on buying a brand new 2 cyl or 4 cyl in 2020 so this is a good experience to learn about motorcycles.

This bike was wheelied and straight piped at a point so i wasn't too surprised to see such out of spec clearances.

For anyone reading, if you ride your bike like a good boy, at my same mileage your clearances likely would be 2-3x better indicating possibly less drastic wear.

Again, thank you guys for willing to share some words. I'll give a full update in case anyone is interested.

/thread

Last edited by AlexFromCali; 05-25-2019 at 05:15 PM.
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post #9 of 18 Old 05-25-2019, 09:28 PM Thread Starter
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Update. So apparently I did it correct. I used smaller shims to allow for a greater clearance. My measured valve clearances were actually MUCH better than I thought
0.145, 0.15, 0.145, 0.175, 0.155, 0.145, 0.10, 0.10 mm across the exhaust board, the spec is 0.24-0.32


I did a+b-c=d
a = present shim
b=measured valve clearance
c= specific clearance
d= replacement shim

The average equation was

1.848 + 0.145 - 0.275 = 1.718

So all of the old shims are 1.848 or 1.845 mm. All of the new shims are 1.70, 1.75, 1.65, 1.60.


So since the shims are more likely than not property set, I am still wondering why the cam chain retards 1/2 a tooth, the chain sticks to the chain guide near the exhaust sprocket, and the crankshaft advances 3 mm. The cams are seating just fine and smooth, but either due to impatience or tightening unevenly, the cam chain gets stuck 1/2 a tooth retarded. The exhaust cam stays tensioned the entire time, and the cam chain is properly set, but as soon as I tighten it to a point it throws the camshaft chain off. I don't mind that the crank is moving, as long as the cam chain is properly set it is in time.

So I'll try to seat the camshafts again slowly, and retard the crank 2 teeth to compensate. I have found out that on almost every single car where the timing belt is a pain in the ass to get on, backing off the crank to compensate and stimulate the belt to slip on worked better than having two people try to fit it on with less play. So I am hoping backing off the crank 2 teeth instead of 1 tooth might give the chain proper room to not jump.

If anyone has any advice prior to me attempting again please let me know I will be in debt.

Last edited by AlexFromCali; 05-25-2019 at 10:06 PM.
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post #10 of 18 Old 05-26-2019, 03:27 AM
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Alex, I think you're over thinking the cam positioning. The maintenance manual calls out the relationship between the chain and cam without the cam caps being torqued down for a reason. As you have witnessed multiple times the cam lobes are being pushed on by the valve springs. As each cylinder requires different valve positioning, the forces from the valve springs are different. That inevitably puts torque on both cam shafts.


Set the crank to the correct mark. Ensure you have the correct cylinder. Count the pins between the cams. All done, without the caps torqued. The engineers who wrote the shop manual know what they are doing. They didn't obsess over the motion of the cam shafts in the manual, because they compensated for it in the set up instructions. Trust the manual.
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post #11 of 18 Old 05-26-2019, 11:11 AM
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Freaking auto complete.....

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post #12 of 18 Old 05-27-2019, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
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Freaking auto complete.....
GREAT NEWS.

One of the dowel pins in the central part of the cylinder head, around the spark plug holes, was 1-2mm higher than the other. That amount of variation almost perfectly accounts for why the cams weren't seating good. I just hammered it back in with a rubber mallet.

I have a side question. In the crankshaft timing inspection hole, there is a pulley with the timing mark, and a visible toothed sprocket. The pulley with the timing mark moves CW and CCW with the chain. The toothed sprocket infront of the timing mark (towards me) only moves counter clockwise, not clockwise (but the chain and timing mark on the 'crank' do move clockwise).
Is that visible toothed sprocket the starter gear or something? It's not supposed to spin Clock Wise right, i'm assuming by design? I don't remember how it was before I pulled everything off but that's my educated guess. If it is what I am thinking it is, it's some sort of gear sitting on the end of the crank sprocket.

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post #13 of 18 Old 05-27-2019, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexFromCali View Post
GREAT NEWS.

One of the dowel pins in the central part of the cylinder head, around the spark plug holes, was 1-2mm higher than the other. That amount of variation almost perfectly accounts for why the cams weren't seating good. I just hammered it back in with a rubber mallet.

I have a side question. In the crankshaft timing inspection hole, there is a pulley with the timing mark, and a visible toothed sprocket. The pulley with the timing mark moves CW and CCW with the chain. The toothed sprocket infront of the timing mark (towards me) only moves counter clockwise, not clockwise (but the chain and timing mark on the 'crank' do move clockwise).
Is that visible toothed sprocket the starter gear or something? It's not supposed to spin Clock Wise right, i'm assuming by design? I don't remember how it was before I pulled everything off but that's my educated guess. If it is what I am thinking it is, it's some sort of gear sitting on the end of the crank sprocket.
Pics dude.

Are you talking about the crankshaft sprocket behind the ignition cover?

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post #14 of 18 Old 05-28-2019, 01:58 AM Thread Starter
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Pics dude.

Are you talking about the crankshaft sprocket behind the ignition cover?


Marked by blue. It only rotates counter clock wise, not clockwise. The crankshaft rotates both, counter clock wise and clockwise.
Since the inspection hole is called the "starter inspection hole" I'm assuming that's a starter gear / starter clutch?


Anyways, the problem was a dowel pin sticking 1mm above the rest. I just hit it flush with a rubber mallet. It literally took 6 hours and 5 attempts to seat the cams to figure it out. If anyone is reading this, save yourself 6 hours and make sure all the dowels are flush to the cylinder head.

My new exhaust clearances are
0.275 0.26 0.26 0.26 0.26 0.26 0.26 0.26
From
0.145, 0.15, 0.145, 0.175, 0.155, 0.145, 0.10, 0.10 mm

Ex standard: 0.24-0.32 mm
IN standard: 0.13 to 0.18 mm

I put the CCT in, it only started to click when I rotated the crankshaft clockwise 2 times, taking up the slack.

Overall, I can't believe it worked! Will post a startup video. 11k miles. I also changed the spark plugs, air filter, coolant, oil, fork seals/bushings, chain & sprocket. Also some sick tank knee grip pads.

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Originally Posted by laggy311 View Post
As long as there was an actual clearance (ie - not zero) I would just keep running it, but I am a heathen compared to others here like RiversZZR. My 98 has a specified clearance on the exhaust side of 0.22-0.31mm (0.009"-.012"), so you were half of that. That isn't good, but it shouldn't be the end of the world, either.
Like I wrote in this post, I was actually using mm and my exhaust weren't tighter than 0.10, with an average of 0.15mm. Which is good considering this bike was beat the piss out with no exhaust and wheelies by the previous owner. No surprise all exhausts were out of spec and he sold it to me with 10.5k miles :
Now all my clearances are 0.26mm for the exhaust. All of the intakes were already in spec at 0.15mm. I'll likely recheck clearances in 2 years. I used victor reinz german gasket stuff (grey/black) to use on the old cover gasket.

I really liked playing around with the stock CCT. I made sure to oil it some, pull it out with 'force', as well as make sure it didn't go back, etc. Seemingly solid design by Kawasaki. I won't mind a rattle even though I'm sticking with a stock exhaust + cat. I'll probably commute with the bike to uni. Insurance for me is $180 a year and reg is $80 here in California. This is my learner bike and I honestly am not too upset I got an 07 zx6r instead of 09-2012.

Thank you guys for the posts and trouble shooting. I'll post a startup video in less than 3 weeks.

Last edited by AlexFromCali; 05-28-2019 at 02:08 AM.
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post #15 of 18 Old 05-31-2019, 09:58 PM Thread Starter
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Everything went good. Reassembled everything. Noticed the inspection hole for to turn the crank has it's threads stripped out for the most part. Any advice on how to ghetto rig it? I heard of people using corks or rubber stoppers. I can only get the bolt in half way before it feels like i'm going to strip it even more.
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