Brembo Suspersport Rotor Brake Pad Options, 13+ zx6r - Page 4 - ZX6R Forum
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post #46 of 66 Old 01-03-2019, 09:34 PM
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Also, don't over think what trail braking is. It's simply using the brakes past tip in. As you progress, you'll use the brakes harder and longer towards the apex.

Here's a good pic of Will on the 3MR endurance bike at Barber this past October during the last WERA endurance round for the year. Going into T5 (Charlotte's Webb), he's got the bike leaned over a good ways, forks compressed a good amount, and his two fingers still clearly wrapped around the brake lever pretty good to get the bike slowed up and turned so he can drive hard out of the corner.
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It is always those that use their brakes the least that want to upgrade them the most.
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post #47 of 66 Old 01-03-2019, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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Big thanks to @Otto Man @Backmarker and @ZedExMuse for always helping out with rider techniques. I've personally benefited a lot from it. Thanks guys.
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post #48 of 66 Old 01-03-2019, 11:17 PM
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What about controlling rebound with your brakes?


Very good Q.

I cannot take credit for this insight. Several years ago (≈2005) I was at L.S. for WSB races. I happened to be walking past the Suzuki Factory garages and I was carrying my Corser rep Shark. I'm chatting up one of the mechanics, mooching discarded carbon fibre pieces in the bin. Corser walked out, and politely joins the conversation. After a few moments he asks if I'd like his signature on my helmet. Oh ya, sure.

Very, very nice dude. inquires as to where I'm from. Asks how I'm enjoying the races, chit-chat. I mentioned I had watched him on TV during the races that happened earlier in the season, and noticed he seemed to deal with pavement ripples from the F1 braking zones better than most. He winds up answering in detail how he handles the irregularities .

It wasn't any grand cosmic gift, or I have balls the size of soccer balls bravado. What he does is 'pre-compresses' the suspension by using his middle finger to oh so gently 'soak up' the available suspension at the front end; sometime but not the majority of the time he'll even trail brake the rear brake. Now he's feeding in throttle input with his palm & ring/little fingers. By doing so one greatly reduces the pogo-ing effect generated by the ripples. This sets him up perfectly for the rest of the corner and on to the exit. That is because he's already monitoring trail brake/throttle input, and is ready to open the throttle at the exit.

And yes, it can be a bit more jarring if one is not prepared. Thus, you wanna do the MX thing and get your bum up/hovering the saddle, and resort to bio-mechanical shock dampening: flex ones knees & elbows. The point is to allow your appendages to act as another set of shocks - and don't get your bum up in the air, just enough to limit the smack your spine would have to take whilst crossing rough pavement.

That one piece of advice made all the hassles that go with attending an International race event all worth it. I've incorporated into my riding tool kit ever since.

Cheers, I hope that helps.
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post #49 of 66 Old 01-04-2019, 08:12 AM
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This is why I love this forum. Tons of help.

Bottom line from what I'm reading is...seat time is the only way to learn. Unfortunately in Pennsyltucky it's going to be below 30 until August
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post #50 of 66 Old 01-04-2019, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
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Your bike turns quicker on the brakes because you're decreasing speed, it's just physics.
Just cant agree here - not one of my bikes has done this. Hard on the brakes, start turning and then release the brakes and the bike turns in.




Jumping over onto the trail braking conversation, this is one that works for me

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post #51 of 66 Old 01-13-2019, 10:15 PM Thread Starter
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Both calipers are monoblock but the CBR Tokico is compact compared to the Kawasaki Nissin caliper.

Side view



Top View

Tokico on the left, Nissin on the right



The Tokico is almost 6oz lighter

Nissin weighs 1.121



Tokico comes in at 1.069

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post #52 of 66 Old 01-14-2019, 01:21 PM
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when you gonna get these on the track then?
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post #53 of 66 Old 01-14-2019, 02:59 PM Thread Starter
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when you gonna get these on the track then?
Next month, if it doesn't rain, at Sonoma Raceway. if not at Buttonwillow in March.
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post #54 of 66 Old 01-14-2019, 04:44 PM
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This is why I love this forum. Tons of help.

Bottom line from what I'm reading is...seat time is the only way to learn. Unfortunately in Pennsyltucky it's going to be below 30 until August


I know this is off topic a little bit, but here goes:

PinoyRider88, you fhuu-uuhp, you should have asked Santa/Mrs Claus, or one of the kinky she-elves in the workshop to cobble you up some spankin' new electric riding gear.

Almost every summer I ride Hwy 101/PCH 1 from approx. 45° N. latitude. These are the furthest west Hwy in the contiguous US. I continue as far S as Cambria, CA, which is 35° N. latitude. It's a fair stretch of the legs, so to speak. Well, what's that in E. coast 'money'? It would roughly be the equivalent of Bangor, ME south to Fayetteville, NC.

Why, the geography lesson? Because so many think of CA as palm trees, bikinis and sunshine, and it can be. But even in Monterey, CA (which is S of San Francisco) in the month of July the mornings are foggy and cold; sure the afternoon temp warm up nicely. Likewise, once the sun goes down below the horizon, the evening get very chilly as well. Move that same latitude measurements a few hours E and one finds themselves smack dab in the Sierra Nevada Mtns. Which is the route I take home, going N.

So, the E has the Appalachian Mtns. But Hwy 120 in CA goes up to 9,944 ft high (Tioga Pass). On the other hand, the highest paved road over the Appalachian Mtns is a respectable 6,684ft via Mt Mitchell pass on Hwy 128 in NC. Uumm, that's a difference of 3,260 ft.

Now this isn't to illustrate whose Johnson is bigger. The point I'm trying to illustrate, is that in Sacramento it might be in the high 90s, yet Tioga pass out of Yosemite NP can be chilly (40s/low 50s) even in the summer.

Gain 3K in elevation is probably gonna see some cooling affects. Double that and oh H. yes. Triple the original figure and absolutely one can find the air temp cool, esp with 'Ninja Speed.' So, electric gear isn't just for winter, or über high elevations. Wind chill can lead to hypothermia, which rapidly decreases judgement, depth perception; and can result in one going into shock - yes while one is operating a motorbike.

When I was young (20s), I thought only old grey-beard land-yacht riders on Gold Wings, and touring BMWs, and huge HD 'baggers' wore electric gear. Badass sportbike riders didn't use that kind of gear. Right now, just S. of Portland the lows were in the 30s, as they are projected to be tonight; the highs have been/will be in high 40s/low 50s; with lows in the low 30s.

Another way to look at is on a 50° F day, and going 50 mph yields a windchill of 25° F! Yes, water freezes at 32° F. Food for thought.

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post #55 of 66 Old 01-14-2019, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZedExMuse View Post
I know this is off topic a little bit, but here goes:



PinoyRider88, you fhuu-uuhp, you should have asked Santa/Mrs Claus, or one of the kinky she-elves in the workshop to cobble you up some spankin' new electric riding gear.



Almost every summer I ride Hwy 101/PCH 1 from approx. 45° N. latitude. These are the furthest west Hwy in the contiguous US. I continue as far S as Cambria, CA, which is 35° N. latitude. It's a fair stretch of the legs, so to speak. Well, what's that in E. coast 'money'? It would roughly be the equivalent of Bangor, ME south to Fayetteville, NC.



Why, the geography lesson? Because so many think of CA as palm trees, bikinis and sunshine, and it can be. But even in Monterey, CA (which is S of San Francisco) in the month of July the mornings are foggy and cold; sure the afternoon temp warm up nicely. Likewise, once the sun goes down below the horizon, the evening get very chilly as well. Move that same latitude measurements a few hours E and one finds themselves smack dab in the Sierra Nevada Mtns. Which is the route I take home, going N.



So, the E has the Appalachian Mtns. But Hwy 120 in CA goes up to 9,944 ft high (Tioga Pass). On the other hand, the highest paved road over the Appalachian Mtns is a respectable 6,684ft via Mt Mitchell pass on Hwy 128 in NC. Uumm, that's a difference of 3,260 ft.



Now this isn't to illustrate whose Johnson is bigger. The point I'm trying to illustrate, is that in Sacramento it might be in the high 90s, yet Tioga pass out of Yosemite NP can be chilly (40s/low 50s) even in the summer.



Gain 3K in elevation is probably gonna see some cooling affects. Double that and oh H. yes. Triple the original figure and absolutely one can find the air temp cool, esp with 'Ninja Speed.' So, electric gear isn't just for winter, or über high elevations. Wind chill can lead to hypothermia, which rapidly decreases judgement, depth perception; and can result in one going into shock - yes while one is operating a motorbike.



When I was young (20s), I thought only old grey-beard land-yacht riders on Gold Wings, and touring BMWs, and huge HD 'baggers' wore electric gear. Badass sportbike riders didn't use that kind of gear. Right now, just S. of Portland the lows were in the 30s, as they are projected to be tonight; the highs have been/will be in high 40s/low 50s; with lows in the low 30s.



Another way to look at is on a 50° F day, and going 50 mph yields a windchill of 25° F! Yes, water freezes at 32° F. Food for thought.
Sadly, I do have Gerbings gear, BUT out this way we have snow salt and general crap on the road that I wouldn't even take a dirt bike onto.

Having said that as I enter my mid 30s and 10 years in the army there has always been a line of the lengths I have to/am forced to go to vs. The lengths I am willing to go to for things I'd LIKE to do.

Dressing up like an astronaut to be as flexible as Ralphie on my (more comfy) FZ-09 below 30 has lost its charm over the years. Unless it's a meaningful ride.

For example, a year ago I did in fact dress up like I'm about to go to Pandora from Avatar hop on my(then street legal) ZX6R after spending 9 months in the middle east and rollout with my old man at 7am in the morning.

These days I'm lucky if I wake up without some feeling funky...then again I do "functional fitness"

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post #56 of 66 Old 01-15-2019, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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So far so good. I'll change out the rotors once I make sure the MC stays firm.

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post #57 of 66 Old 01-17-2019, 01:53 PM Thread Starter
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Rotors installed. The CBR calipers have better clearance and are easier to install even though there is a 5mm increase in rotor height. Spacers actually needed to be 18mm, not 15mm, so those are on the way.

Here's a comprehensive guide to brake pads/calipers from Rogue Racing/ Kyle Racing's suspension tech.

ROGUE RACING, BRAKE PAD COICES

and

ROGUE RACING, MY THOUGHTS ON BRAKE PRODUCTS

Here's an interesting quote from that blog:

Quote:
Brembo the largest name in motorcycle braking components and found on almost every single MotoGP bike makes some of the finest braking components in the world. They also make a lot of entry level products that are OEM fitment themselves and simply no better than most other OEM fitted products. Their M4 and HP CNC 2 piece calipers say Brembo on them, but in my experience are no better than the Tokico 2 piece calipers that came standard on my old 2004 CBR1000RR. In my opinion you really need to upgrade to at least the GP4-RX calipers if you really want an improvement over most OEM style calipers and even those are just a minor upgrade when you compare them to the GP4-RR calipers that are $1900 EACH with titanium nitride coated pistons and you have to buy the pads separately let alone the 4 pad monobloc's that are in the $2500 range EACH and require narrow band rotors which are $1200 etc. You can spend big money on braking components, but when you get into that high end stuff you really do get what you pay for. The lower end stuff not so much. I mean it is likely worth the cost for what you get, but that doesn't mean it is better than the OEM stuff you already have. I have seen a lot of sportbike owners switching to Brembo M4 calipers in the 108mm spec. I would personally not spend my hard earned money on the M4 calipers. They are are nothing more than OEM style calipers on older Ducati's. Why people replace one OEM caliper with another OEM caliper is beyond my level of comprehension, but it likely goes back to the aforementioned idea that something different isn't always better.


And I've decided to go with the Vesrah SS compound. I like the bite the SRJL17 have and this is based on it combined with the progressive braking of the XX. They also are supposed to last a very long time.

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post #58 of 66 Old 01-19-2019, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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And project complete! Total cost of calipers and spacers was 96$

Couple of differences I noticed immediately over the Brembo rotors VS OEM is the decreased drag from the full floating buttons. Brembo rotor also has 5.5mm vs the OEM's 5.0mm width. It probably won't make a major difference at the track but it's something I wanted to do since the OEM caliper didn't have the pads I wanted to use available, plus getting a great price on the Brembo rotors.

Brembo Supersport oversize 320mm rotors

2015 CBR600(1000)RR Monoblock Calipers. Mounted with Brembo 220A06137 18mm spacers (Brembo bolts had thread imperfections so I ordered some RacePro Titanium Caliper Bolts M10 x70mm)

Maxima Racing Brake Fluid

Vesrah VD-170 RJL (ZZ or SS) Brake pads. Still waiting on order

Coupled with components I already had:

Brembo MK2 19x18 MC

Galfer Superbike Brake Lines



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post #59 of 66 Old 01-22-2019, 06:57 PM Thread Starter
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I was wondering as to why the blog at Rogue Racing mentioned that he didn't find the Brembo calipers to be any better over OEM. Now, this is only true with pro level riders, so 99% of us wouldn't notice a difference.

After comparing the caliper specs they are both two piece designs cut out of CNC billet aluminum. So far so good. A two piece precision milled caliper can have the proper stiffness and is as good as, or even better sometimes, than a monoblock, but their more expensive ones will obviously have a better design with the middle bridge adding stiffness.



The difference comes when you see the pistons and pads. The two I mentioned still use aluminum pistons which has greater thermal conductivity, which would lead to more heat transmitted to the brake fluid and thus causing brake fade, making it a poor choice for top level racing. To overcome this, stainless or titanium pistons with ventilation are used which are far superior at keeping heat away from the brake fluid. See this chart from Braketech:



Considering the entry level and mid-level calipers from Brembo still use these pistons and range from 700-1500$, I can definitely seen why it would be just spending money for some without it making much of a difference for a top level rider. For example, in the MotoAmerica paddock, top teams in the superbike class use the Brembo EVO CNC Monobloc, except for Westby racing who uses Beringer.

Again, nothing substantial here but just something I found interesting.

More info here: https://braketech.com/caliper-racing-pistons/




------

Here's that Rogue Racing Article

ROGUE RACING, MY THOUGHTS ON BRAKE PRODUCTS

Quote:
Brembo the largest name in motorcycle braking components and found on almost every single MotoGP bike makes some of the finest braking components in the world. They also make a lot of entry level products that are OEM fitment themselves and simply no better than most other OEM fitted products. Their M4 and HP CNC 2 piece calipers say Brembo on them, but in my experience are no better than the Tokico 2 piece calipers that came standard on my old 2004 CBR1000RR. In my opinion you really need to upgrade to at least the GP4-RX calipers if you really want an improvement over most OEM style calipers and even those are just a minor upgrade when you compare them to the GP4-RR calipers that are $1900 EACH with titanium nitride coated pistons and you have to buy the pads separately let alone the 4 pad monobloc's that are in the $2500 range EACH and require narrow band rotors which are $1200 etc. You can spend big money on braking components, but when you get into that high end stuff you really do get what you pay for. The lower end stuff not so much. I mean it is likely worth the cost for what you get, but that doesn't mean it is better than the OEM stuff you already have. I have seen a lot of sportbike owners switching to Brembo M4 calipers in the 108mm spec. I would personally not spend my hard earned money on the M4 calipers. They are are nothing more than OEM style calipers on older Ducati's. Why people replace one OEM caliper with another OEM caliper is beyond my level of comprehension, but it likely goes back to the aforementioned idea that something different isn't always better.

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post #60 of 66 Old 01-23-2019, 01:05 PM
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I have seen a lot of sportbike owners switching to Brembo M4 calipers in the 108mm spec. I would personally not spend my hard earned money on the M4 calipers. They are are nothing more than OEM style calipers on older Ducati's. Why people replace one OEM caliper with another OEM caliper is beyond my level of comprehension, but it likely goes back to the aforementioned idea that something different isn't always better.
so that probably saved me £500 then! And maybe why so few people ive seen at the track have deviated away from the stock calipers

If i can see a cheap set of CBR/R1 then i might still try it, but the decent ones seem £250

I'll wait your feedback though
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